What's the right call?

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Last weekend I saw this play happen...

Girl on 1st 2 outs. Dropped third strike. The ball actually bounces off the catcher and then back out in front of the plate. Batter takes off for first base and the runner on 1st advances. Catcher jumps up to pick up the ball and as she does the umpire says strike three batters out. Catcher picks up ball and rolls it to the rubber. Ump immediately realizes he made a mistake and declares everyone safe and apologizes to the other team for his mistake. Other team complains, umpires have a conference and change the call again and call the batter out.

What should have happened?

 

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It's about getting it right. I think what happened was that both umpires felt the catcher would have succesfully made the throw to first to get the batter-runner out. I think you already know this, but with two outs and a runner on first, the batter may try to advance to first base on an uncaught 3rd strike.

Len

 

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Yah looking back on it that's probably what would have happened if the catcher would have made the throw. I understand your logic but is that what should have happened?

 

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I believe that is exactly what should have happened, however I do not own an umpire book. I believe if an umpire knowingly makes a rules mistake, the umpires get together, talk it out, and make what they believe is the fairest decision. We might need the umpires to jump in on this one.

Len

 

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This is precisely why in umpire training it is NOT recommended to say, "Strike three, batter out". We are told to just say, "Strike", or, "Strike three".

If you habitually add the "Batter out" part to your third strike calls, one of those times (like this one) you're going to call a batter out when she's not really out. Then you have a problem on your hands...

This is covered under the section of the rule book dealing with the umpires. Whenever a reversed or delayed call puts one team or the other in jeopardy, the plate umpire is responsible for deciding what the outcome will be. There is no "set in stone" to answer this question. Each play should be judged on it's own merit and any solution crafted by the plate umpire should reflect the most likely outcome had the correct call been made in the first place.

If the most likely outcome of the play would have been the batter-runner being retired before safely reaching first base, then the out could be upheld.

And then...you had better be ready to get an earful from the offensive coach! Since this was obviously an umpire error, you're probably going get some heat. As long as he doesn't go overboard, you should let him vent a bit. Take your tongue lashing, then get the game moving along again as quickly as possible.

This has the potential to become a real mess! But it's a mess that can be avoided altogether by following a simple umpire mechanic. DON'T say "batter out" as part of your third strike calls!

 

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This is precisely why in umpire training it is NOT recommended to say, "Strike three, batter out". We are told to just say, "Strike", or, "Strike three".

If you habitually add the "Batter out" part to your third strike calls, one of those times (like this one) you're going to call a batter out when she's not really out. Then you have a problem on your hands...

This is covered under the section of the rule book dealing with the umpires. Whenever a reversed or delayed call puts one team or the other in jeopardy, the plate umpire is responsible for deciding what the outcome will be. There is no "set in stone" to answer this question. Each play should be judged on it's own merit and any solution crafted by the plate umpire should reflect the most likely outcome had the correct call been made in the first place.

If the most likely outcome of the play would have been the batter-runner being retired before safely reaching first base, then the out could be upheld.

And then...you had better be ready to get an earful from the offensive coach! Since this was obviously an umpire error, you're probably going get some heat. As long as he doesn't go overboard, you should let him vent a bit. Take your tongue lashing, then get the game moving along again as quickly as possible.

This has the potential to become a real mess! But it's a mess that can be avoided altogether by following a simple umpire mechanic. DON'T say "batter out" as part of your third strike calls!

Ump blew the call. Time to apologize to the defense. Both batter and runner are safe. New batter up. That is the rule. DD's been a catcher for years and knows that if there is "any" question to complete the play. All things are good then.;&

 

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Hmmm? Which rule do you think says that?

I don't disagree that good catchers always "complete the play". That way, there can't be any question about it. But if an umpire calls a player out (when she's not), and a team reacts like she really is out, the umpire has put the team at a disadvantage. That is exactly what the rule I noted above is meant to address.

 

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Well Bretman seems to be the resident expert on officiating so I guess I will go with his call. It just seems wrong that a girl can be called out without ever actually being put out. That happens all the time I am sure on close plays and judgement calls on tags and such but this is not a judgement call by any means. I don't ever remember seeing a "do-over" for any play but I kind of feel like that might be the most appropriate thing to do. Pretend as if that pitch never happened and everybody resets.

 

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It just seems wrong that a girl can be called out without ever actually being put out.

Yes, it does.

But no more wrong than giving her a free base if the defense was deprived of the opportunity to put her out, just because they reacted to the umpire saying that she was already out.

When the umpires are forced to "fix" a reversed or delayed call, one side or the other usually isn't going to be happy about it. That's why it's so important to make the right call in the first place! If you're forced to fix something like this, all you can really do is judge what the most likely outcome would have been and go from there.

A "do-over", while sounding fair, could cause even bigger complaints. Suppose that this batter, who has just struck out, smacks one over the fence on the do-over. How do you think the defensive coach is going to react to that!

 

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Yes, it does.

But no more wrong than giving her a free base if the defense was deprived of the opportunity to put her out, just because they reacted to the umpire saying that she was already out.

When the umpires are forced to "fix" a reversed or delayed call, one side or the other usually isn't going to be happy about it. That's why it's so important to make the right call in the first place! If you're forced to fix something like this, all you can really do is judge what the most likely outcome would have been and go from there.

A "do-over", while sounding fair, could cause even bigger complaints. Suppose that this batter, who has just struck out, smacks one over the fence on the do-over. How do you think the defensive coach is going to react to that!

I agree with you, it just feels wrong. The defensive coach should rightly be upset. But so shouldn't the offensive coach if she gets out on the next pitch because she had already successfully advanced to first on the previous pitch. I just feel like the girl at the plate would have an opportunity to reach base safely (again) and the defense would have an opportunity to put her out for real this time. It's really a lose-lose situation. Makes me really appreciate the good umpires. And in this guys defense he knew that he made a mistake and you could tell that he felt bad about it. He had a lengthy talk with the other umpire to make the final decision.

 

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Guys that care about what they're doing will feel bad about it when they make a mistake...been there, done that! And no matter how good you are, if you work enough games you will eventually make a mistake on a call. Heck, it even happens in Major League Baseball games, where you have the best umpires in the world!

 

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Now I am totally confused-3 years ago batter bunts ball, bases loaded, one out. Catcher is stud, picks up ball and fires it to first as ump is starting to say "dead ball"; 1b whips ball to 2b, SLOW runner is tagged out. Home blue says "no, no, no, no, batter is out, everyone go back." Other coach asks home to ask field for help, who was standing in the outfield behind the SS--here is where it really gets weird: After conference, all runners are advanced TWO bases-field blue says he couldn't see ball hit batter, we get no outs, two runs score, and eventaully lose the game 3-2.;& Home blue also threatens to throw out any one who questions call, and refuses to explain to coaches. That is the stuff that should get an umpiring crew fired, period.

 

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I'm at a loss to explain that one.

If I was the defensive coach, I'd probaly be getting ejected on this one! I would demand to know why the ball was called dead on a routine bunt play and why the runners were just awarded two bases. I'd make it clear that I wanted to know the answer because I need to know which rule to reference in the official protest I'm probably about to file. I would refuse to leave the field until I got an explanation.

It has been my experience that umpires who refuse to answer questions about a call, or threaten to eject coaches that do ask a question, are usually just trying to cover up for their own shortcomings. An umpire should be able to answer any question a coach might have about why a play was ruled the way it was.

 

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Referring to Bretman's original posting on the original play in this stream. Bretman, you know I think you are the best interpreter that I have ever met, but on this play I think you are wrong. First, the things we agree on, it was a mistake if the home plate umpire called "Batter out", poor mechanic. I have been accused of making this call in similar circumstances and I never call "batter out" on a called third strike, so I am pretty sure that when I have been accused calling "batter out" on a dropped third stike with a runner on first, I didn't do it. So, did Blue in this case actually say "Batter out"? What I am sayiing here is, is it possible for some people to hear "Batter out" because that is what their mind is telling them is occuring and so they believe that the umpire called "Batter out" when if fact it is their imagination! That may not be the case here.

Even if the umpire called "Batter out" as reported in this case, I don't see how you can still have an out in these circumstances. In my book, this play is a very similar to the umpires calling an infield fly when the infield fly rule is not in effect, on a fly ball hit to the infield. In this case, as umpires, we are taught to be humble, say we blew the call, take the abuse and move on "without changing the results of what happened on the field". The umpire has blown a call if he/she calls "Infield fly" and the rule is not in effect, no doubt about it, but is the defense's responsibility to know the circumstance, ie the infield fly rule is not in effect at this time, and make the proper defensive play, regardless of what the umpire has called. In our dropped third strike case, the catcher also make has made a mistake, it is the catcher's responsibility to know the ball and strike count, to know where runners are, and to know how many outs there are, and to make the proper play given the circumstances. So do you apply the "jeopardy" rule which then negates the catcher's mistake..... and the umpire's mistake?

I wouldn't, but whatever call is made, get ready for the mayhem.

 

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Referring to Bretman's original posting on the original play in this stream. Bretman, you know I think you are the best interpreter that I have ever met, but on this play I think you are wrong. First, the things we agree on, it was a mistake if the home plate umpire called "Batter out", poor mechanic. I have been accused of making this call in similar circumstances and I never call "batter out" on a called third strike, so I am pretty sure that when I have been accused calling "batter out" on a dropped third stike with a runner on first, I didn't do it. So, did Blue in this case actually say "Batter out"? What I am sayiing here is, is it possible for some people to hear "Batter out" because that is what their mind is telling them is occuring and so they believe that the umpire called "Batter out" when if fact it is their imagination! That may not be the case here.

Even if the umpire called "Batter out" as reported in this case, I don't see how you can still have an out in these circumstances. In my book, this play is a very similar to the umpires calling an infield fly when the infield fly rule is not in effect, on a fly ball hit to the infield. In this case, as umpires, we are taught to be humble, say we blew the call, take the abuse and move on "without changing the results of what happened on the field". The umpire has blown a call if he/she calls "Infield fly" and the rule is not in effect, no doubt about it, but is the defense's responsibility to know the circumstance, ie the infield fly rule is not in effect at this time, and make the proper defensive play, regardless of what the umpire has called. In our dropped third strike case, the catcher also make has made a mistake, it is the catcher's responsibility to know the ball and strike count, to know where runners are, and to know how many outs there are, and to make the proper play given the circumstances. So do you apply the "jeopardy" rule which then negates the catcher's mistake..... and the umpire's mistake?

I wouldn't, but whatever call is made, get ready for the mayhem.

I was not coaching in this game but I was right next to home plate watching. The ump did admit that he said batter out and had made a mistake. IMO, he was very humble and upset with himself. The defensive team lost it when he called the girls safe and the offensive team argued politely and was visibly upset but let it go. PS the offensive team won the game by multiple runs anyway.

 

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Bretman, you know I think you are the best interpreter that I have ever met, but on this play I think you are wrong...

Good to see you back on the forum, Bill!

If I knew for a fact that I didn't say "Batter out", then no way would I uphold the out. In that case, the defense is responsible to make the play and if they don't...too bad for them.

I can also picture plays where I might have the batter safe at first. For instance, if the ball goes so far away from the catcher that the batter is close enough to first base that I judge she would have probably been safe anyway.

But if I really did call the batter out (which I hope I never do!), and the defense was reacting to my bad call, I would tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the defense, especially if it was a play where the batter probably would have been put out anyway.

This does serve to illustrate what I mentioned in my first post: If the umpire calls a player out, when she's not really out, there is no specific rule that says, "This is what you do". You have to evaluate each play on it's own merit and try to place runners or enforce outs that were the most likely outcome if the right call was made in the first place.