Hitting and Hitters Discussion Whats wrong with this picture ?

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How about some constructive criticism ? I see some problems but would like some more experienced opinions. Im a lefty and cant seem to help her much.

This is her first year and i cant seem to break the "slow pitch" swing.....

 

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Looks like shes dropped her back elbow.Stance is to wide.Bend at the hips give at the knees.JMHO Ask hitter for his opinion he is the guru on hitting.

 

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killer avatar.... I'll bet Howard will reply, it may take him a while to type this one out... My guess is you will need an invite...

 

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Just be prepared to listen if he dishes out the advice. I have no doubt he can help.

 

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The problem, as I understand it...

When the rear elbow gets too far ahead of the hands, this creates "bat drag". As the name implies, the body may be rotating, but the bat head will stay back (drag), then whip around at the last second. You create an inefficient connection between the body's rotation and the bat.

The resulting swing may actually have MORE total bat speed at the end due to this dragging effect, as the bat whips around at the last moment. But the swing will be a late one, with little or no room for timimg error or adjustability.

One analogy I have heard is about the difference between "bat speed" and "bat quickness", which are really two different things.

Consider a drag racer that spins his wheels at the starting line when the light turns green. His launch from the line will be delayed until his tires hook up. He may ultimately reach a higher track speed than his competitor, but will probably lose the race. The race isn't about who generates the top speed, but about who gets from point "A" to point "B" the quickest.

And it is the same for a hitter. A hitter who is dragging the bat is "spinning her wheels" at the starting line. There are things you can do to generate more total bat speed, but some of these things will come at the expense of bat quickness. Bat quickness- getting the bat from the loaded position (point "A") to the contact zone (point "B") is essential in that it allows the batter time to recognize the pitch, wait on it and make any late adjustments for pitch movement.

Calling this a "slow pitch swing" is an apt description. There are many things the slow pitch player can do to increase bat speed, like using an exaggerated load or coil back, a huge stride or dragging the bat. But the slow pitch player can get away with it because he needs almost zero adjustability in his swing path or timing.

The measured bat speed of top slow pitch players is actually 20 m.p.h. or more FASTER than that of Major League baseball players! That is because they can get away with some mechanics that if the baseball player tried to use the ball would be popping the catcher's mitt about the time he got the bat off his back shoulder.

Bat drag is also something that the youngest players might be succesful with, where the pitching is not too advanced. It is one of those things that seems to be intuitive to a beginning player. If you want to grab a stick and hit something hard with it, the body just naturally seems to assume this position as our brains tell us it is the best way to hit something as hard as you can.

But as the younger player advances, so does the pitching. What worked against slower pitches without much movement- and, in fact, may have even created some spectacular results with all the extra bat speed generated- becomes an absolute swing killer when the pitches are faster and dancing around.

This is something that a player is going to have to "unlearn", as it goes against the body's natural instincts when trying to hit something "hard". My guess is that the "cure" is going to be lots of repetitions focusing on the right way to slot the rear elbow, keeping it "stacked" directly below the hands or even slightly behind them.

I hope that Howard does check in here, because I'm curious as to his observations. An experienced hitting instructor probably has a lot more experience dealing with this problem and likely has some techniques to remedy it.

 

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Bretman: Pretty good. I have H's corrective action, but I will let him post it. Some very good posts on bat lag on discuss fastpitch .com. Cshilt has some good posts on this subject.

 

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Being a lefty is perfect to show this girl how to swing. Just face each other and have her do what you do!..it's like looking in a mirror.

Bretman is correct. This young lady is severe bat drag and chances are it causes early extension thus creating a gate swing. She is also flat-footed and probably has very little or no hip rotation. She also seems to be stepping towards the third baseman but that could be an optical illusion due to the photo angle. Here's what I would suggest:

The set-up:

Have her set up in the batter's where her right foot is about 4 or 5 inches behind the tip of the plate and both feet are about one foot to 14 inches away from the side of the plate. A slightly open stance is okay (front foot about 3 inches further away from the side of the plate than the back foot. Never allow a closed stance.

Since she is wearing batting gloves on both hands I would strongly suggest aligning her "knocking" knuckles (the knuckles you use to knock on a door) when she grips the bat. When she sets up in the batter's box her top hand should be just below and behind her ear, and the bat should angle back and slightly behind back of her head at roughly a 45 degree angle. Her force gripping the bat should be relaxed, just enough to hold on to the bat.


Her stance should be just slightly wider than shoulder width. Her knees should not be locked but they should not have much bend in them either; they should be in a relaxed position. She should have a slight bend at the waist in towards the plate. Her heels should be barely touching the ground because most of her weight should be shifted towards the balls of her feet. Her head position should be where both eyes can see the pitcher without straining and there should not be much tilt in the head.

The swing: (she will need a ton of tee work)

Have her bring her front knee back towards her rear knee, causing her front heel to come slightly off the ground but making sure the big toe of her front foot stays on the ground. At the same exact time her hands should be moving straight back towards the umpire. This is called loading, or trigger, or negative movement. The purpose of this move is to give the batter more force and power to drive the ball. It causes the hitter to "coil" so they can "uncoil" during the forward part of the swing.

Once loaded, have her take a 6 or 7 inch step towards the pitcher, landing on the ball of her foot. Many people call this toe touch. At the same time, have her attack the ball with both her bent front elbow and front shoulder, while the rear arm should travel down towards her rib cage. The tricep of her hear arm should be very close to her body, and her rear elbow should point no further than straight down at the ground between her feet. The batter needs to pull the bat through the hitting zone with her lead arm/shoulder/back rather than pushing the bat through the zone with her rear arm/shoulder/back. This is where a major part of this young lady's swing falls apart. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to attack the ball with a bent front elbow and strong front side.

Once at toe touch, her hips should start rotating, causing her front heel to plant into the ground. Her front knee should now be firm, and it should feel like the weight of her body is going into the front knee and planted foot. This allows the rear foot, during the hip rotation part of the swing, to come up on the toe box of her shoe. Do not have her spin the ball of her rear foot into the ground, and do not let her drag the entire shoe of her rear foot during hip rotation. Upon contact, that rear foot should be up on her "tippy-toe".

During hip rotation, the barrel of the bat should be below her hands but on the same plane as the ball. The ball, believe it or not is actually travelling downward, so the swing needs to be upward and in the same plane. Many people call this swinging level on the ball (not level to the ground), because you are trying to keep the barrel of the bat in the same plane as the ball for as long as possible, giving you an increased chance of making good contact. There should be some bat lag during hip rotation, but at contact the barrel of the bat should be below and slightly in front of the hands. Contact with the ball should be made before the ball gets into her body, in other words hit the ball out in front. Once contact is made her swing should go into full extension, with her hands finishing high and the bat finishing above her front shoulder. Have her swing through the ball, not to the ball.


Len

 

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Go to this website and see what the elite women hitters do.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/olympic;jsessionid=tz3sg04wc4.tiger_s

Notice how they all PREPARE, and their timing of the pitcher. Notice what position the hitter is in - when the pitcher is at the "T", and then at release. This preparation phase does wonders for helping prevent many bad habits young hitters develop, referred to as "dropping hands", "leading elbow", "erect stance", etc. Clip #5 pretty much sums up what Lenski described. Notice how she prepares, and literally attacks the ball. No wasted motion. That's a confident hitter!

I would discourage you, as a dad, demonstrating a swing to your DD - unless of course you have an awesome swing! I would encourage her to imitate other elite female swings though. This is NOT an overnight process! But considering her extreme degree of bat drag, you should see visual results almost immediately.

DO NOT expect her batting average to go up as soon as she starts using new mechanics - as part of the learning process, it may go down as she gets comfortable and it becomes natural. But I guarantee if and when she develops a swing anything close to those on Siggy's site, she will be a MUCH better hitter.

On a side note - I respect Michelle Smith for everything she has given women's fastpitch, but listening to her verbal teaching yesterday during the WCWS was simply flat out wrong! She repeated over and over "look how she gets extended to meet the ball", "flat swing", etc. A simple look at HER OWN video clips on Siggy's site clearly shows she is NOT extended at contact! The best advice - do AS THEY DO, not AS THEY SAY! Watch Michelle's swing (Stanford) and you'll see. Also note Becky Marx (clip #12) hitting a low pitch. Arms are NOT extended at contact! Notice that rather than straitening her arms (extending), she keeps a slight bend in her lead elbow, and bends at the waist to reach the pitch. Try it yourself! Extending the arms into contact robs power, and results in a "disconnected" swing.

 

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How about some constructive criticism ? I see some problems but would like some more experienced opinions. Im a lefty and cant seem to help her much.

This is her first year and i cant seem to break the "slow pitch" swing.....

Stance width is not really that bad, front foot knee is flexed and that is good, head needs to be turned more to the pitcher and she is too far forward and the rest is a mess!

How well does she throw a ball? Does her back leg release from the ground when she throws? I have never seen a girl with an ugly swing throw well and that is where we start. We teach how to step on a flexed knee on the ball of the foot to allow the weight to transfer forward. We teach to pull in the glove arm to allow the right shoulder to be active...this is a basic martial arts move.

We start with a proper foundation by teaching to bend at the waist and then soften the knees next in that sequence. It is difficult to make a ballistic move as to swinging without balance. We then go to tracking the ball as we show them they are stronger with their head down verses up.

Next we have them choose a stance that allows for a good two eyed look at the ball while standing in front of a mirror. We ask them to turn their head towards the pitcher so they can see the white around the lead eye on both sides of the eye. We then ask if there is any discomfort in the neck or shoulder area and there usually is so we ask them to move their back foot towards home plate about 2 inches and unless they have had lazy left eye surgery this usually corrects the problem. Now they have picked their stance.

Stance width is next however again we let them choose what feels best and we chalk off their original position. What happens is as they feel more balanced they usually get wider so we show them they actually moved on their own to feel it. We use 1.5 the width of their shoulders plus or minus 2 inches.

We measure off from the plate at the back corner by laying the bat across the plate and take our lead foot toe and place it at the knob of the bat and move the back foot to the 1.5 width of the shoulders. We use the graphics on the bat like a measuring stick so they know and feel where they should be until they can become consistent in their stance.

We have them get a good two eyed look at the ball looking through the net at an object that represents the pitchers window of release point. Take a few cuts off the tee and she what is happening, is there a load, is there a weight shift and how do they do it?

We go back to the mirror and and point out the shape between their legs is similar to that of a pyramid and the back hip should not move very much as we begin our load by using a simple knee cock or turning in of the front foot and I am positioned behind them and they can see my foot move in the mirror. Then I get in front of them by their lead shoulder and ask them to load to see if their weight goes over the back leg or inside the back leg. Then I brace them up and hold their shoulder and ask them to pick up their lead foot off the ground so they can feel the weight inside the back leg. If I can hold them up with one hand I point out in the mirror how the weight is over the back leg or that they are leaning backwards away from the pitcher.

While standing in front of the mirror we explain slow to load, soft to step on a flexed/ bent front knee landing on the inside area of the lead foot on the big toe and our hands separate slightly rearward at toe touch. We try to keep it simple and do not go into scap loading and levers etc.

While in front of the mirror we explain there are about 755 MLB players that have a tremendous amount of athletic ability and currently you probably do not so avoid the extremeness of what they do verses what you do. We have the top of the hands at the top of the shoulders, tap the back of our helment about where the pony tale pocket is at on our helmet so we can feel where the hands are and the bat angle is. The back elbow is away and not all the way up and it can not be down if we are going to lower it as we slot.

We do not line the finger knuckles up and use an offset grip. The bat is held in the palm where the fingers meet the palm of the hand in the bottom hand. In the top hand we hold it across the hand from the index finger pad to about the middle of the hand and allow the bat to rotate in the top hand and let the bat slide out towards the finger tips and we hit the ball so we are palm up and palm down. We do not lock out the elbows at contact.

By bending at the waist first and softening the knees next you will see and feel the heel of the shoe is actually on the ground however the heel of your foot is actually off of your shoe. You can take their shoe off and take a piece of note book paper and place it under their heel and when they bend at the waist and soften the knee the paper will slip out...the heels do not have to be that high off the ground to be balanced.

Now to feel what it is like to pull or whip the bat from around their head take a piece of rope and knot one end of it. Have the hitter prepare to hit and load and step and separate and you stand directly behind and to the side of the shoulder and take the tension out of the rope and as they begin to pull the rope where did the path of the hands actually go? Usually over the plate or casting. Now explain the lead arm elbow makes a good first move by the elbow going straight ahead about 2 to 4 inches and as it goes forward it is also moving upwards at a slight angle and the top hand elbow is lowering or slotting downward at the same time and the elbows MUST work as a unit. Some term this staying connected. We want them to feel the pulling action of the knob of the bat inside the path of the ball with a flexed lead arm elbow while pulling the bat not pushing the bat. Next have them move the back elbow closer to the body and they will feel they have less power than when the elbow is away from their body. The back elbow MUST clear the body so they have maximum power as they release the barrel of the bat to the ball with the wrist. We say knob of the bat inside the path of the ball and release the barrel to the ball and through the ball keeping the lead arm somewhat flexed and as we are driving the ball the lead arm will straighten out depending on the balls location as to depth in box. In the begining stand in front of the hitter and take your right hand palm facing the hitter and have them touch your palm with their lead arm elbow and then take your other palm and with it near your other hand touch the knob of the bat to that palm and the shoulders are tilting and opening at the same time. We tell them the hands are always above the plane of the pitch or elbow hands and bat head with the bat head at a slight angle down depending on the pitch. Show a location of a rise ball and then a drop ball so they get the idea of why the hands are always above the ball.

To get the bat path in their mind put them on one knee and take the hands the legs out of it. Kneel on their back leg and stretch out the lead foot for balance. I soft toss from the side and as I lower my hand they must time me so as not to stop their hands rearward and think just changing direction and not stopping. Very much like someone doing Tia Chi as the pitcher never stops their motion and as a hitter we do not want to stop our motion....dance with the pitcher. Pitch a variety of low to high pitches so they must adjust. If extension is an issue do a hand over. Take the top hand and turn it upside down and as you hit the ball pull the bat out of the top hand using the lead arm elbow and finish high...you will get to extension and this stops the shoulder and back slapping. we have hit balls 130 to 140 feet this way and then with both hands one hopped or put it out of the park....good way for them to feel the difference of pulling verses pushing the bat.

Then do face the fire drill and tie it all back together or linking it back together as to the bottom and the top.

 

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Well one things for sure, the amount of help offered through this post and in private messages in nothing short of overwhelming.....I appreciate all the responses and most of all appreciate being constructive.

I dont fully understand most of what has been written after reading it 4 times but will do my best to digest it so i can lead her down a better path.

I appreciate all the "experts" chipping in, if you ever need to understand stents and their use in angioplasty i can help you out, hopefully you dont need one !! but im keeping my nose out of hitting mechanics for now !!


While we were watching the world series last night we watched some batters swings, she understood what they were trying to accomplish, then i showed her these pictures of her and the look on her face was "oh my that's ugly"......she gets it, if i can just teach her correctly i think there is hope yet.


She has the desire,the ability, unfortunately her parents cant teach her the right way without help from people like you.....

Thank You !!

 

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DO NOT expect her batting average to go up as soon as she starts using new mechanics - as part of the learning process, it may go down as she gets comfortable and it becomes natural.

Sammy, Dont worry, Zero is Zero , she wont be going any lower i can guarantee that.....lol

Were 8 games into it, her time will come, she is just getting a little nervous. Fortunately she is an important part of the infield so she must learn to fight thru it for her team.

I dont understand ,she hit better last year in her first fall ball attempt than she is doing now.

How well does she throw a ball?

She throws it well but very oddly looking, i think she has overcome any bad habits and makes it work but it's not pretty.

One thing i must add is her coach is contantly working with her and has no intentions of stopping but im just looking to do something outside his regualr practices for everyones benefit. It may be over my head but i think in some way i should be able to help her.

 

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Goto the Right View pro site and look at the demo and then think about what you have read. That helped me connect the dots before a vist to Uncle H cleared the cobwebs.

http://www.rightviewpro.com/how-rvp-works/concept

 

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We teach our girls how to throw before we teach them how to hit...it has to do with the female ACL issue. The females knee does not fire like a male and I am not going to get into all the details (google female ACL injuries) however it has to do with the leg does not bend or flex like a males and unless taught how to do it they throw awkwardly and hit the same way because they can not use a linear weight shift. If you do not see the leg follow them after a throw their arm usually hurts them at the shoulder and elbow. We took a girl who threw on a radar gun from 50 MPH to 66 MPH in less than 15 minutes showing her how to use her body properly.

The biggest improvement you will make quickly will be her hand path.

Again simply explain we want to pull the bat from behind the head or whip the bat. Use the rope or even surgical tubing and if the knob of the bat (hands) are inside the path of the ball her lead arm will be flexed with the elbow above the plane of the ball and the back elbow will be lower and will be away from her body after a few try's put a bat in her hand and you will see and hear the difference. Her elbows are not working as a unit or team and staying connected.

It is time to fish or cut bait as my dad use to say or maybe it was bouldersdad....give it a try and let us know how it goes.

Howard

 

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One thing I have found that is very helpful is going to you tube. Type in fastpitch trainer and you will get great advice with a video to help you understand. The man really breaks down the swing for us slow guys. Also type in scpanthers and watch this girls swing..very impressive. Good luck