BUYERS BEWARE

Discussion in 'General Softball Discussions' started by steve77621, Apr 6, 2021.

  1. steve77621

    steve77621 Member

    I coach a 10u team and 3 of my players have recently bought the Mizuno F21 power carbon bat and in less than 10 days 2 of them have broken, is anyone else having problems with this bat? Or having problems with getting them replaced?
     
  2. IRdad09

    IRdad09 Active Member

    I'm assuming the are the -11 models. My DD had the same issue. Broke 2 in a month. Both within a week of getting them. Mizuno sent the -10 and she has been using it since August with no issues at all.
     
  3. IRdad09

    IRdad09 Active Member

    It is now her favorite bat she has swung. More so than even the LXT's and Prism's.
     
  4. jt7663

    jt7663 Active Member

    -11 seem to be the weight that Most Manufacturers have the most trouble with - Currently Swinging a -10 Power Carbon without any problems
     
    IRdad09 likes this.
  5. steve77621

    steve77621 Member

    1 was a drop 11 and 1 was a drop 10. Hopefully the replacements hold up better.
     
  6. IRdad09

    IRdad09 Active Member

    Well my previous post jinyxed me. My DD broke her -10 tonight. Cracked just like all the Ghosts you see out there. Guess it is time for its final replacement. SMH
     
  7. jt7663

    jt7663 Active Member

     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  8. DanMaz

    DanMaz Super Moderator Staff Member

    any bats made in the USA??
    - i would bet these are all breaking because the Chinese manufacturers can never be trusted. They will use inferior materials just to save a penny even if its not up to the standards because they dont care about your safety... its always about the money.
     
    CARDS likes this.
  9. tjsmize3

    tjsmize3 Active Member

    Daughter bought -10 Titanium to try since there has been some possible issues with the power carbon breaking. The knob broke off of the bat on about her 30th swing off of a tee. Got -10 power carbon the next day. 2nd day of BP with the bat (maybe at like a total of 150-200 hits) barrel cracked. Went to Dick's to get the latest year -10 LXT (one we knew was susceptible to cracking) and it cracked at about 150 swings. Now using a -10, 3 year old LXT which is holding up fine so far??? Daughter is an '03 with only 1 broken bat prior to this in 10 years...
     
  10. IRdad09

    IRdad09 Active Member

    I get that all the manufactures are trying to push the limits and produce the next great bat. Possible new materials, thinner walls, multiple barrels, ect. However, I don't consider this an "advancement" if the bats don't hold up. My DD is 12u. None of these girls swing hard enough that they should be able to break a $400 bat. You could at least give me an argument the HS or College girls could. The manufactures are good with their warranties and you get a replacement quickly. It is still a pain and with the fear of a bat breaking it basically forces you to carry more than 1 "good" game bat. I never broke a bat playing other than wood, it just didn't happen in the "olden" days.
     
  11. DanMaz

    DanMaz Super Moderator Staff Member

    I have never seen so many bats break in all my years of this sport either. every practice i have a new story of bats breaking. One kid has broke 4 or something since last fall.
    12u. That's just not right.
     
  12. yocoach

    yocoach Super Moderator Staff Member

    There's 2 reasons that's causing all of the hubbub I think. 1)Part of it is a case of the old adage, "Disgruntled customers will complain to 10 or more people while satisfied customers will tell 3 on average." All you hear is the bad stuff. 2) Many people don't realize that properly sizing a bat goes beyond length and weight. Those are general rules to go by. They also need to take into account swing mechanics, swing speed and exit velocity of the ball. If the swing speed is above 65-68MPH, the bat is too light for the player and will not last due to overflexing/overstressing of the composite material. It took me a long time to figure this out. This is true for metal bats as well. The difference is metal will bend or dent verses cracking or blowing up.

    My DD's swing speed, depending on the year, would fluctuate between 73 MPH and 78MPH. She broke at least two bats a year while coming up through TB. She turned numerous Rocketechs into boat oars at 12U. She broke 3 Rocketflexes at 13 and 2 at 14 in 14U by cracking the composite handle in half. Then we switched to the Mizuno Whiteout Extreme 2 one piece and she'd have it for about 4 months before it would develop dead spots in the barrel then crack. Finally, she ended up with the a pair of 2018 34/-8 USA Ghosts before heading off to play in college dropping her swing speed to 68-70 MPH or so and haven't had a problem since. I got her the GA this past Summer in a 34/-8 and she hasn't had a problem with that one either. I gave one of her 2018's to another of my hitters when I got DD her GA and she's been using it non-stop hitting 600-750 balls a week in practice at home, through TB Fall Ball, and now HS ball. One of the hitters I work with wore out a 2019 Ghost this past week after 2 solid years though and one of my 14U TB players had the connection point on her Demarini Prism start to separate/loosen up a few weeks ago. Other than that, my team, my hitters, my HS players, etc. have had very few problems with bats.

    It's all about sizing the bat properly. Don't forget... mass x acceleration=velocity. Just because you go to a slightly heavier bat and lose a few MPH of swing speed doesn't mean your DD will lose distance. On the contrary. It usually means she will gain some...and some bat longevity as well.
     
  13. DanMaz

    DanMaz Super Moderator Staff Member

    it all sounds good yocoach and I am sure a lot of it may be true... BUT I still believe its inferior materials being used or the thickness is not what they say it is... typical China manufacturing move. I know because I deal with China manufacturing for almost 20 years,
     
  14. tjsmize3

    tjsmize3 Active Member

    Shawn, I actually buy this argument and kind of wish I had seen this coming a little earlier. We had talked about either going to a 34" bat or to a (-9)... or both... but did not make the move. Now I hate to do it in the middle of HS school season, but would prefer not end up north of $2,000 spent on bats! The only thing that goes against your explanation somewhat though is the fact that she hasn't broke the 3 yr old 33/23 LXT. She has used that bat for both travel and HS ball and hits 500-1000 balls per week. There has to also be something going on with the construction of these bats to keep getting these stories of breaks at just a few hundred swings. It's across the board too with same problem using Easton, Louisville Slugger, Mizuno, etc...???
     
  15. DanMaz

    DanMaz Super Moderator Staff Member

    see above
     
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  16. yocoach

    yocoach Super Moderator Staff Member

    Your 3 YO LXT is an older style bat and occasionally someone gets a quality, unflawed, old tech composite bat. A majority of Wilson bat models (Demarini and Louisville Slugger) are old tech. The bat walls are thick and they have been tweaked and repainted to the point of obsolescence. That's why they started fooling around with this years model of the LXT. In order to get it hotter and compete with the Ghost, GA and PC's exit velocity, they tried a slightly different composite formulation and thin downed the bat walls. Historically, every time Wilson has tried a composite formula variant, it has backfired dramatically. This change to the 2021 LXT's is no different. They are breaking on par with the Ghosts, Ghost Advances, F21 Power Carbons, etc. and still haven't matched their exit velocities. That said, it is noticeably hotter out of the wrapper than their past LXT's and other various models sold under the Wilson name. Has anyone noticed a company and model of bat which is also a new tech gap bat that isn't mentioned in most places as breaking? Answer: Rawlings Quatro Pro. Does anyone have one or know of anyone that has one other than me? Answer: Probably not. Sales of this one never took off. Why? Because they were nowhere near as hot right out of the wrapper as the Ghost which was introduced the same year in 2018. Yet, If someone were to put 500-750 swings on the thing to open it up, exit speeds would be extremely close to the Ghost depending on swing speeds. The reason I mention this bat is because it illustrates a very important point...Society today, due to various reasons no longer has patience and wants, expects and demands immediate results.

    On another thread, I posted a couple of things which I will reiterate here.
    1. There are only so many hits on a composite bat. Whether they are new or old tech, they will break sometime.
    2. Old tech is more durable because the bat walls are thicker and will take more punishment/flexing of the bat walls.
    3. Old tech bats right of the wrapper can in no way, shape or form, compete with the exit velocities of the new tech right out of the wrapper.
    4. The new tech, due to several reasons, are not as durable as the old tech.
    5. The reasons are:
    5a. Thinner bat walls
    5b. Inherent flaws in the composite manufacturing process which become more pronounced with thinner walls.
    5c. Most of these flaws are undetectable to the naked eye.
    5d. Manufacturers won't spend the money on other forms of detectors such as X-ray to detect these flaws leading to poor quality control.
    5e. The reasons for this: (JMO)
    5e1. Too many bat barrels would have to be thrown out when found to be flawed.
    5e2. There would be so many that it would make a serious dent in the manufacturers bottom line and with people unwilling to spend more than they already are on a bat, these manufacturers can't make up the difference in profit margin.
    5e3. It's far cheaper to replace the broken bat with another bat that costs them $50(as an example) to manufacture than throw out 6 flawed barrel blanks costing $20 a piece to manufacture for every 1 that would actually make it through a rigorous quality control process.

    The bottom line is this. Due to the very nature of the composite material and it's manufacturing process as of today, as manufacturers increase performance, endurance suffers. But because of todays immediate results driven economy, these very same manufacturers are giving the people what they want. The hottest bats right out of the wrapper. That they break more often is of little consequence to them because they know that most people in todays society aren't willing to take a NIW bat and put 1000-1500 swings on it (like we used to have to do) before getting the results they want and expect. The Rawlings QPro is evidence of this trend. Again, JMO of this phenomena.
     
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  17. tjsmize3

    tjsmize3 Active Member

    Shawn, thanks for taking the time to post this. I really appreciate it!
     
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  18. yocoach

    yocoach Super Moderator Staff Member

    You're welcome Tom.:)
     
  19. yocoach

    yocoach Super Moderator Staff Member

    Dan...See Above.
     
  20. daboss

    daboss Well-Known Member

    Excellent post! I agree wholeheartedly but that's just my opinion as well.

    I don't want to overshadow any of your points but would like to add one more thought just because I can. The importance of hitting the "sweet spot" on the bat is highly critical and we all know how difficult this can be. It only stands to reason that missing the sweet spot can cause undo stress to the bat. In the older bats it was a basis for argument for bat failures. A point of interest is the new bats are failing even when being used properly and the contact point in the sweet spot is consistent.

    Everyone is looking for that extra edge over the competition. There is one thing that could help with the problem but in my opinion will never happen. That would be the sanctioning bodies to lower the BP standard of the bat for less need for manufacturers to go to such extremes in bat production. I don't see anyone being on board to chance taking any of the offense out of the game.
     
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