A mere symptom of what's wrong with travel softball

[daboss]

In regards to our local rec, I can personally state travel isn't the issue! Here's our local rec story:

In the beginning we had a minimum of 2 team for each age division; however slow and steadily I have witnessed a harsh decline in our rec league. The more I think about it, it's not a decline more of a demise or on life support! Anyhow this prompted me to start investigating, as to why we were losing so many players; especially since our tball program is thriving! Through my investigating and talks with several players and their families I found the main issues wasn't travel or loss of interest it was contributed to the following:

1. There are to many worried about #1. We have coaches and board members building teams around their children and their desire to play particular positions. Locally it doesn't matter how hard other players work or how talented they are, coaches kid and their buddies get priority! These coaches will lose games before moving their child and buddies players; seriously it's all about developing the select players, the rest is just bodies in the field (outfielders mostly)

2. Mutliple Coaches have mutliple kids playing in mutliple age groups, even when they are not needed to fill the roster. For example: coach has 2 daughters that are 2 years apart; first child plays 10u and 12u rec along with travel (dad Coaches all 3 teams) 2nd child plays 8u,10u rec and plays travelball (mom Coaches all 3 teams) often times the 2nd child will also play off weekends with 1st child's older travel team. Now here comes tge twist, mom and dad are related and best buddies with older 16-18u coach so they arrange 1st child to fill in and roster on this team too; as well as making arrangements for 2nd child 14u. Now all these teams have complete rosters but these children are still added, are often times started and playing just as many if not more than girls who only play on age appropriate team. As a 10u, 12u, 14u, 16u, 18u rec player how does it make them feel, sitting the bench (50% or more), while an 8 or 10 year old plays in your spot? It might take the sting off, if these 2 players could outplay the girls on the bench, but not when they are making errors and striking out every at bat.

3. Board members pushed rec and travel players away that would speak against what they were about to do! Anyhow 2 towns went from 4 team down to the point hey they had to many for 1 team and not enough for 2 teams; which allowed them to absorbed players from another town. Upon distribution of the players only the talented, mostly travel, players, from another town were stacked on 1 team; which pushed all the new or rec only players to the 2nd team. Then the stacked team tore through the league undefeated. What makes all other players want to return next year to be slaughtered again?

Before I go any further I would like to personally accept responsibility for my actions. I am not innocent, I have been apart of the problem; however when my child was playing on mutliple teams and starting/playing over girls who only played on 1 team, I pulled my daughter after 2 games! I was not allowing my child's hard work and talent to take away any opportunity from any children whose parents do not have the time or resources to play travel ball or a kid who just wanting to play ball! Although I wasn't a coach, I was part of the problem; to make up for the part I played, I began to look for a solution! This led me to advocated change!

I started discussions and pushed for coaches to only be allowed to coach 1 age division. For players to play in whatever age division they signed up in! Also a player could only be allowed to be pulled up 1 age group from the age division they were initially playing. Also to restrict pulling kids up until the roster fell below 10 players. I further pushed that a player pulled up was not allowed to start or play more innings than a rostered player and they batted at the end of the lineup. Also the opposing coach had to be notified of any player who was pulled up and both books had to document every inning the younger player played and who she subbed; then turned in for review, to ensure the rules were followed! Finally I looked into replacing the board members; however there is no way to replace them. Once you are a part of the hierarchy the only way a member leaves is if they retire, die, or someone hire up sets a vote and calls in favors to push them out; unfortunately when the issues comes from the president down there isn't anything that can be down. Also i was quickly hushed by all those in power, my children were treated horribly for my actions; Finally pushing me just to give up and move my child to travel only!

Eta: I wrote this while driving (yes, I know I'm horrible for it) anyhow please excuse any grammatical errors

My beginning comments deal with travel ball because you mention it as a course of action that would eliminate many of the problems you just dealt with in a Rec ball situation. Sorry, but unfortunately travel ball has it's own set backs.

As much as I hate to admit it I have witnessed something very similar over the years in travel ball. I (we) were never a part of it so I never had reason to to take action. I merely witnessed others dealing within and wondered why they passively stood by and appeared to be willing participants. While sanctioning bodies have rules to help deter many of the things you mentioned, teams picking up replacement players in season can create a storm. The difference between a tropical storm or a hurricane may only be a few MPH.

The teams I observed, appeared to be part of larger organizations and gave the appearance this was normal protocol, yet the faces of the parents along the foul line fencing was telling a different story. The grumbling amongst themselves would grow and many times comments could be overheard after the team would lose. I would ask a few, as they prepared to leave the area, what just happened and they were careful to say they would be looking for another team for next season. They insinuated they were duped at tryouts and some said they were promised this kind of thing wouldn't happen. The dissension was obvious as a core group of parents were tightly gathered at the backstop and the dugout while the others were some distance away.

This is one of the reasons I referred to in my previous post as why parents were jumping ship as early as June. Families experience a winter and spring of promises that things would be different once the "real" season begins. It doesn't take them long to see their money has been wasted on the current situation after a friendly or tournament. It's still present.

Similar scenarios can and have happened in Rec, but the cases I saw were purely related to a lack of volunteers. The saying "beggars can't be choosers" comes to mind. Some say "even bad help is better than no help" but I have felt that's no always true. Volunteers in today's world are in short supply. Volunteers with knowledge and teaching skills that also have a sense of fair play are rare gems. If you find them, grasp them and support them. These same mentors will be relaying more than the game to your children.

Peanutgallery, it sounds like you have a corrupt Rec program with deep roots. I admire you for trying to make a difference. It's admirable that you took the moral high road and by example pulled your daughter from the environment. The problem in many cases comes from Rec programs that constantly twist things so a few can justify their selfish behavior. If they would simply follow the guidelines set by Little League, Cal Ripkin, or a similar program they could avoid many of the issues you mentioned.

You tried. That's more than most would do. You already know you'll probably need to find a greener pasture. Just walk away for now and find a solution for the remainder of your summer. Perhaps this winter you can approach the local Rec. or the Community Club with your proposal of change and offer to help restructure things in the off-season. Volunteer to help.

 

[Peanutgallery]

While I agree in most areas volunteers are I'm short supply, I can ensure you that is not the case in our local program. I have heard the talks or witnessed people volunteering left and right but because the volunteers were not part of the "group" they were denied; not to mention, the people who volunteered had greater knowledge than most current coaches in the league. Yes, you are absolutely correct about our organization being corrupt but parents will stand by complain, yet refuse to take action! I'm a parent thats part of a dying breed, I live by the motto "its about ALL children, not just my own!" Sadly the only way things will change if is the organization dies completely; which truly bothers me but it's the truth! I hate it for the children that have no other options; however until this happen, a true organization where everyone adheres to the same rules, is just wishful thinking!

In regards to my daughter I was lucky; I had the knowledge and foresight to see the direction and failures of the league. This promptly me to move her to travel ball, when she was very young. While our journey in travel ball hasn't always been smooth, she has been quite successful!

Sadly on the flip side of things, I have heard/witnessed several horror like you mentioned. Softball is a small community, people talk and it does seem that more and more coaches are used car salesman (or at least that's what I call them) these coaches will lay out the perfect sales pitch, describing everything a parent would want to hear, to recruit the player; then, it's all downhill! Fall and winter nothing is what was promised, but these parents state " we hung in there because we committed to the team and paid our fees.....we figured once the coach became more knowledgeable with our players strength and weaknesses it would get better! Then spring/summer rolls around and nothing changed; eventhough we had 15 errors per game, little Susie's is riding the bench!" Another complaint I hear is " little Susie's was brought on to be the 2nd catcher, our catcher has allowed 5-9 passed balls per game or doesn't have the accuracy/ arm strength to throw anybody out; yet she may get 1 inning every tournament! We were promised this was a development team but how are you developing the player if she isn't getting reps in practice or games?" Finally the most common complaint I hear is "little Susie's was brought on to pitch yet she is getting very little l, if any mound time! Our coach decided to pick up sub pitching every tournament, instead of pitching our rostered pitchers. Some subs he has pitched over little Susie, has been slower or less consistent! Sometimes he does picks up a pitcher a few mph faster but there isn't much difference between the 2. If the sub gets drilled, he leaves her in; however, when little Susie starts getting hit, he pulls her immediately!" We all know there are parents with rose colored glasses but often times I would hang around to watch the games and these parents were right! Then coaches wonder why they lose players!

Seriously these coaches push away loyal families for players who may be a couple mph faster or a little: stronger, developed or athletic! If these same coaches would actually trust, believe, and develop the players they chose from tryouts, I'm positive it would pay off 10 fold!


Sadly between these 2 cycles, in rec and travel, ends more carreers then burnout or injury ever does! One day I pray we can get on get back on track and to the fundamentals we lost, when the sport was more about talent and less about money and egos!

 

[yocoach]

While I agree in most areas volunteers are I'm short supply, I can ensure you that is not the case in our local program. I have heard the talks or witnessed people volunteering left and right but because the volunteers were not part of the "group" they were denied; not to mention, the people who volunteered had greater knowledge than most current coaches in the league. Yes, you are absolutely correct about our organization being corrupt but parents will stand by complain, yet refuse to take action! I'm a parent thats part of a dying breed, I live by the motto "its about ALL children, not just my own!" Sadly the only way things will change if is the organization dies completely; which truly bothers me but it's the truth! I hate it for the children that have no other options; however until this happen, a true organization where everyone adheres to the same rules, is just wishful thinking!

In regards to my daughter I was lucky; I had the knowledge and foresight to see the direction and failures of the league. This promptly me to move her to travel ball, when she was very young. While our journey in travel ball hasn't always been smooth, she has been quite successful!

Sadly on the flip side of things, I have heard/witnessed several horror like you mentioned. Softball is a small community, people talk and it does seem that more and more coaches are used car salesman (or at least that's what I call them) these coaches will lay out the perfect sales pitch, describing everything a parent would want to hear, to recruit the player; then, it's all downhill! Fall and winter nothing is what was promised, but these parents state " we hung in there because we committed to the team and paid our fees.....we figured once the coach became more knowledgeable with our players strength and weaknesses it would get better! Then spring/summer rolls around and nothing changed; eventhough we had 15 errors per game, little Susie's is riding the bench!" Another complaint I hear is " little Susie's was brought on to be the 2nd catcher, our catcher has allowed 5-9 passed balls per game or doesn't have the accuracy/ arm strength to throw anybody out; yet she may get 1 inning every tournament! We were promised this was a development team but how are you developing the player if she isn't getting reps in practice or games?" Finally the most common complaint I hear is "little Susie's was brought on to pitch yet she is getting very little l, if any mound time! Our coach decided to pick up sub pitching every tournament, instead of pitching our rostered pitchers. Some subs he has pitched over little Susie, has been slower or less consistent! Sometimes he does picks up a pitcher a few mph faster but there isn't much difference between the 2. If the sub gets drilled, he leaves her in; however, when little Susie starts getting hit, he pulls her immediately!" We all know there are parents with rose colored glasses but often times I would hang around to watch the games and these parents were right! Then coaches wonder why they lose players!

Seriously these coaches push away loyal families for players who may be a couple mph faster or a little: stronger, developed or athletic! If these same coaches would actually trust, believe, and develop the players they chose from tryouts, I'm positive it would pay off 10 fold!


Sadly between these 2 cycles, in rec and travel, ends more carreers then burnout or injury ever does! One day I pray we can get on get back on track and to the fundamentals we lost, when the sport was more about talent and less about money and egos!

And then you have the third flipside. Where you have a great developmental coach such as myself who takes a bunch of "C" level TB players that have 1 year of TB experience and some rec "All-Stars," get our asses handed to us at the beginning of the year against "A" teams and by the end of the season not only compete against them, but beat approximately 40% of them. Now the parents think that their kid is the end-all-be-all and moves her to a dominant team so she can 'shine." In other words, the parents ego get in the way. The only problem is that that the new team should be considered an "A" team, they play nothing but "B/C' tournament, the player isn't a "stud," is in the bottom half of the ability/game knowledge/athleticism/game situational awareness/etc. and doesn't see the field but a few innings a weekend. Of course the players never develop any further either since those coaches are nothing more than what I call, "talent managers" since they know nothing of developing individual talent...they can only recruit and replace.

Meanwhile, had the parents and player stayed with that developmental team with me and been part of the core 8-9 players that weren't interested in winning the championship hardware at every other "B/C" tournament because their new team plays down instead of facing like competition, they might have placed in Nationals in another year or 2 and their DD might have played a majority of the innings instead of being a bench-warmer.

It still comes down to loyalty and there is none anymore. I'm tired of the disappointment.

 

[daboss]

And then you have the third flipside. Where you have a great developmental coach such as myself who takes a bunch of "C" level TB players that have 1 year of TB experience and some rec "All-Stars," get our asses handed to us at the beginning of the year against "A" teams and by the end of the season not only compete against them, but beat approximately 40% of them. Now the parents think that their kid is the end-all-be-all and moves her to a dominant team so she can 'shine." In other words, the parents ego get in the way. The only problem is that that the new team should be considered an "A" team, they play nothing but "B/C' tournament, the player isn't a "stud," is in the bottom half of the ability/game knowledge/athleticism/game situational awareness/etc. and doesn't see the field but a few innings a weekend. Of course the players never develop any further either since those coaches are nothing more than what I call, "talent managers" since they know nothing of developing individual talent...they can only recruit and replace.

Meanwhile, had the parents and player stayed with that developmental team with me and been part of the core 8-9 players that weren't interested in winning the championship hardware at every other "B/C" tournament because their new team plays down instead of facing like competition, they might have placed in Nationals in another year or 2 and their DD might have played a majority of the innings instead of being a bench-warmer.

It still comes down to loyalty and there is none anymore. I'm tired of the disappointment.

I like the defining term "Talent Managers" you used in your post. That is so spot on!!!!!

Please hang in there. Dealing with parents trying to live a dream thru their kids is so frustrating but as coaches we can't tell people how to raise their families and you already know this. It's why we get frustrated. I had an old coach tell me "You can't save them all" but accepting it is still difficult. Try to keep doing what you are doing because you're good at it and will make a difference to some. It's the families that see the big picture and see it thru that need you. Take some comfort in knowing they appreciate your efforts.

 

[tjsmize3]

I like the defining term "Talent Managers" you used in your post. That is so spot on!!!!!

Hmmm... I'm going to chime in here mostly because I DO NOT like the derogatory term "talent managers." Now there may be cases where this is used appropriately, however, this is generally a term that coaches use about other coaches involved in high level softball.
Also, there is nothing wrong with a player wanting to play at the "A," "B," or "C" level of softball as long as they are appropriately placed based on their talent level and goals for wanting to play the game in the first place. As much as we seem to forget, a 10 yr old A++ phenom frequently does not maintain that phenom status into the older age groups. Most of the time this is just the nature of the beast and no one is really to blame... there is just a change in goals, desire, family situation, etc... it's normal! Some move down a level or two appropriately, some quit! However, the minute a kid that started on the "B" team begins to develop a dream to play at the highest level possible, they and their parents are now sellouts if they move to a team playing a higher level schedule. When did this become a thing? Let's just be honest here, if we are "all about the kids," then why are we so anxious to pin the term "sell out" or "disloyal" on kids and families that want to shoot for a bigger stage. Shouldn't we celebrate that??? And while I can personally tell you yocoach is solid... he WILL teach your kid to play fundamentally sound softball... is it also fair to call the coach of the top level Batbuster team (Mike Stith) nothing more than a "talent manager" because he is not the personal pitching, catching, hitting, fielding, strength coach for all rostered players???? A great coach coaches at the level appropriate to the roster he or she has. You may think you're a pitching coach, but on Stith's team you're not! And even if you are, then you are certainly not the pitching and hitting coach!!!
Having been through 10u-18u twice now (once as a parent, once as a coach) I can tell you for the most part, parents, players and coaches are doing their level best to find their way... they are learning! They are making mistakes! Looking back on my days as a coach we were very successful in terms of national rankings and recruiting. However, with that came some turnover. Some for reasons I noted above, some because MY leadership and communication skills could have been better! The biggest symptom of what's wrong in softball is we have too many posts about what's wrong in softball. This sport sorely needs more coaches and influencers out there (at EVERY level) who are positive minded and guide kids (and their parents) to their goals in a positive and healthy manner without berating other programs.

 

[Tallmadge Force Gold]

Hmmm... I'm going to chime in here mostly because I DO NOT like the derogatory term "talent managers."

Not all coaches that constantly recruit players are talent managers and not all coaches that coach their daughter are daddy ball coaches. But both describe issues that come up too frequently with travel softball.

I've always preferred coaching my local community teams. I did it on the baseball side with my son who was lucky enough to win a OHSAA baseball state championship. Hoping my daughter is equally as lucky. With that said, I watched coaches come in and recruit our players away in both baseball and softball. One in particular was a baseball player that started showing promise at the end of his 10 year old season. Had a great Fall and a "talent manager" convinced the Mom to move teams. He never learned a thing on that new team and came back to us to play his final season of baseball in the Fall of his 14 year old year. What could have been if he had stayed with us or even found another team that developed him. Just a waste of potential talent by that coach that couldn't teach the game but wanted the hardware.

 

[Green Bean]

Issues with travel ball... where to begin? I can relate with some of the commentary about coaches being used car salesmen, selling kids and families on an idea, and then pulling the rug out from under them when the new shiny player shows up... Or the "talent manager" who wants the already developed ready to go kids... But, I also agree that calling coaches of a true A level program "talent managers" isn't exactly the definition I am looking at... It's the *B Level Pretenders* who will criticize the A level orgs, but will never do anything to actually build your team up for that level- just bad mouth well-respected coaches or organizations to convince girls that the grass is never greener.... I think each level of travel ball has its place, and each is valid, and each matters. But each level should have different expectations.

I would argue that the biggest issue in travel ball now compared to twenty years ago would be lack of loyalty. And not just the "team jumpers..." lack of loyalty from coaches and orgs as well. When those contracts are signed in August, everyone has a responsibility and an obligation to fulfill. If the org or coach isn't holding up their end of the bargain, why does the player/family get a bad rap when they move on? I was in this world as a player, coach, and now a parent. But it has become so cutthroat even at young ages that it is no wonder kids get burnt out. If you can't EARN a spot, if you can't get into the top nine on Sunday, but you also can't get any direction as to why... if a kid asks their coach what they need to do to earn more time, and the coach says "sorry I forgot to get you in, remind me" then why waste your time? If your coach is bad mouthing assistant coaches or players to families on your team? If your coach pulls in subs to try to push existing kids out? If your coach mentioned the tourneys your team will attend at tryouts to pull you in, and your schedule is B at best? Our kids get 8-10 years of this, and that's it. Why waste one in a toxic situation? Or a situation where a kid can't develop?

There should be an obligation to all 10 or 11 girls that you sign... and if your time is spent on your favorites and others are left behind, if you don't show up to compete, if you don't hold kids accountable... don't expect families to be forgiving of that forever. Don't expect for that not to circulate in this small community as a "buyer beware."

It is disheartening to see the negatives that have come from this sport growing so rapidly... but there is so much good as well. Going to a ballpark and knowing everyone, spending your weekends with those closest to you, watching the kids you love play the game they love. I guess I would like to see less shade thrown at kids who leave a team, or who do whatever they feel is best for them, and more loyalty and commitment from those who take on a coaching role and who run the organizations that we put our children into. And what happened to organizational coach vetting? Is that even a thing anymore? Because I want to see resumes LOL

 

[yocoach]

Hmmm... I'm going to chime in here mostly because I DO NOT like the derogatory term "talent managers." Now there may be cases where this is used appropriately, however, this is generally a term that coaches use about other coaches involved in high level softball.

Tom, I use this term to talk about other coaches that continuously: 1) play down to trophy hunt,2) brag constantly about their 33-1 record to recruit,3) are constantly looking for the next best player to replace their current rostered player, 4)trying and/or succeeding to recruit that replacement during the season and if successful, 5)sending their current player packing mid-season all because they know ZERO about developing any aspect of player/team skills and succeed in spite of it. I know you don't fall into that category nor do many others at the highest levels. Then there are others that do, whether it be at the A,B or C levels.

 

[yocoach]

I guess I would like to see less shade thrown at kids who leave a team, or who do whatever they feel is best for them, and more loyalty and commitment from those who take on a coaching role and who run the organizations that we put our children into. And what happened to organizational coach vetting? Is that even a thing anymore? Because I want to see resumes LOL

Okay, a couple of questions for you then...1)What kind of "more loyalty and commitment" from the coaches would you like to see? 2) How can a coach show more when the player leaves the team even though they were asked back? I've been both a parent coach and a non-parent coach for 19 years now. Like @tjsmize3 I've been around the block more than a few times. I may not have seen it all but it's pretty damn close and quite honestly, it's not the kids leaving the teams that are an issue, it's usually the parents wearing rose colored glasses and their egos getting in the way. After all, how many 12 YO's and 14 YO's can afford to pay $800 in TB fees and drive themselves to practices and tournaments ? Then again, you also have parents that are both realistic and doing what they feel is in the best interest of their DD's SB career. All too often they are wrong, but at least they think they are doing the right thing.

 

[tjsmize3]

Not all coaches that constantly recruit players are talent managers and not all coaches that coach their daughter are daddy ball coaches. But both describe issues that come up too frequently with travel softball.

I've always preferred coaching my local community teams.

TFG you are one of the absolute best baseball/softball guys in Ohio that I have ever come across in almost 20 yrs in this game. You honestly can take "B" and "C" level kids and compete or beat "A" level teams as I found out first hand back in the day (which is why I used to try to get you to come coach my team!). However, you are like maybe 1/500 coaches. I can remember a Dad who coached a "B" level team who brought his very talented daughter to our team. He was one of these guys who loved to tell me all I was was a "manager" (still have the email). He on the other hand "developed" his players and taught them hitting, pitching, baserunning, etc... he did it all. One day we're doing hitting at practice and he's yelling at his daughter "hands first, then hips." I asked him what he meant by that and he gave me this long explanation that you "hit with the hips" so you wanted them to come around last. He felt you should get the hands going and then "fire the hips to contact." Look his kid really could hit, but just think... she may have been the next Lauren Chamberlain if she wasn't getting this terrible instruction 24/7. A lot of coaches "think" they are "developmental coaches," but few do what you do.

 

[Green Bean]

Okay, a couple of questions for you then...1)What kind of "more loyalty and commitment" from the coaches would you like to see? 2) How can a coach show more when the player leaves the team even though they were asked back? I've been both a parent coach and a non-parent coach for 19 years now. Like @tjsmize3 I've been around the block more than a few times. I may not have seen it all but it's pretty damn close and quite honestly, it's not the kids leaving the teams that are an issue, it's usually the parents wearing rose colored glasses and their egos getting in the way. After all, how many 12 YO's and 14 YO's can afford to pay $800 in TB fees and drive themselves to practices and tournaments ? Then again, you also have parents that are both realistic and doing what they feel is in the best interest of their DD's SB career. All too often they are wrong, but at least they think they are doing the right thing.

To clarify- commitment to the girls you choose. Not even talking about playing time or positions… if a kid is working, present, and doing what she’s asked, she should be getting opportunities and not being benched for a sub on Sunday. You take on 10 girls, those are your ten girls. Or eleven, or twelve, or whatever it may be. We aren’t talking big time PGF or circumstances that might require extra arms etc… happy kids and families don’t leave teams. And I’m referring to kids who leave during season when expectations don’t meet reality. I’m referring to when coaches promise the world and don’t follow through on that. Parents are a problem… we have all seen it. But I just don’t think it’s fair to blame them when we have all also seen bad coaching, egos, and favoritism.

 

[hititwhereitspitched]

TFG you are one of the absolute best baseball/softball guys in Ohio that I have ever come across in almost 20 yrs in this game. You honestly can take "B" and "C" level kids and compete or beat "A" level teams as I found out first hand back in the day (which is why I used to try to get you to come coach my team!). However, you are like maybe 1/500 coaches. I can remember a Dad who coached a "B" level team who brought his very talented daughter to our team. He was one of these guys who loved to tell me all I was was a "manager" (still have the email). He on the other hand "developed" his players and taught them hitting, pitching, baserunning, etc... he did it all. One day we're doing hitting at practice and he's yelling at his daughter "hands first, then hips." I asked him what he meant by that and he gave me this long explanation that you "hit with the hips" so you wanted them to come around last. He felt you should get the hands going and then "fire the hips to contact." Look his kid really could hit, but just think... she may have been the next Lauren Chamberlain if she wasn't getting this terrible instruction 24/7. A lot of coaches "think" they are "developmental coaches," but few do what you do.

AMEN!
From a Christian Science Monitor interview with Ted Williams in 1983:
Ted said the hardest thing to teach players is to get their hips in front of their hands. ''Most kids have it naturally,'' he said, ''but if they don't, it's the hardest single thing to teach. I don't mean hips and hands together. That won't do it. The hips have to lead.''

 

[yocoach]

To clarify- commitment to the girls you choose. Not even talking about playing time or positions… if a kid is working, present, and doing what she’s asked, she should be getting opportunities and not being benched for a sub on Sunday. You take on 10 girls, those are your ten girls. Or eleven, or twelve, or whatever it may be. We aren’t talking big time PGF or circumstances that might require extra arms etc… happy kids and families don’t leave teams. And I’m referring to kids who leave during season when expectations don’t meet reality. I’m referring to when coaches promise the world and don’t follow through on that. Parents are a problem… we have all seen it. But I just don’t think it’s fair to blame them when we have all also seen bad coaching, egos, and favoritism.

I highlighted the most pertinent part of your post because it's true. But it is also a very complex thing to understand since "happy" is relative. You have some parent mentality of winning is the end-all-be-all. If you don't consistently win, they leave. I had 2 of them leave mid season because of this. I just found out through the grapevine that 1 of them is now on her 4th team this year and the other is on her 3rd. You have others that don't see the reality of their daughters ability and skill level, think that they are too good to be on a particular team and leave. Yet you have even more that always see the grass being greener on the other side and continuously team jump.

Don't get me wrong, it's not all on them. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for leaving a team as far as I'm concerned (you mentioned 3) but only 1 legitimate reason to leave mid-season which is some type of abuse being perpetrated. Just to clarify, I don't consider sitting a player on Sunday in place of a sub, abuse. That said, different coaches have varying philosophies concerning subs. Some of them I feel are terrible while others I feel are good. But to each his own. If those philosophies cost them players at the end of the year, then that's on them. Then again, many parents don't understand the reasoning sometimes either. Let me give you a hypothetical situation and let you tell me what you would do as the HC in that situation.

You have a 14U team with a #1pitcher throwing low to mid 60's. The other pitchers are solid with good movement, accuracy and great change of speed. You have an outstanding catcher behind the plate. Your outfield is solid and as far as the infield is concerned, the only weak spot is SS. You carried 12 players but due to injuries you are down to 9 (including your SS which is why the position is weak) and need to pick up a sub JIC another player goes down. You pick up an outstanding SS for the weekend which now allows your team to compete and have a chance to go far on Sunday.
On the flipside, 3 of the current 9 remaining players miss 1 out of 2 practices every week due to them playing rec ball instead of practicing with the first team they committed to. You can't do anything about it because the parents see nothing wrong with it. So what do you do? Do you sit the sub SS and be one and done? Is that fair to the rest of the team who need the game experience of continuing to play, the experience of handling the increased pressure to perform as the day goes on and the confidence gained from it? Or do you sit 1 of the 3 that miss half your practices during the week, who can't hit or bunt because of the increased speed of the pitching and was a great OFer at one time but isn't anymore due to her running up on every ball since playing rec ball and watch the balls go over her head instead of drop stepping? But if you do sit this one, all the parents will see is that you lack "commitment" to their DD. So as the HC of this team and given your player situation, who do you sit on Sunday?

 

[Green Bean]

I highlighted the most pertinent part of your post because it's true. But it is also a very complex thing to understand since "happy" is relative. You have some parent mentality of winning is the end-all-be-all. If you don't consistently win, they leave. I had 2 of them leave mid season because of this. I just found out through the grapevine that 1 of them is now on her 4th team this year and the other is on her 3rd. You have others that don't see the reality of their daughters ability and skill level, think that they are too good to be on a particular team and leave. Yet you have even more that always see the grass being greener on the other side and continuously team jump.

Don't get me wrong, it's not all on them. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for leaving a team as far as I'm concerned (you mentioned 3) but only 1 legitimate reason to leave mid-season which is some type of abuse being perpetrated. Just to clarify, I don't consider sitting a player on Sunday in place of a sub, abuse. That said, different coaches have varying philosophies concerning subs. Some of them I feel are terrible while others I feel are good. But to each his own. If those philosophies cost them players at the end of the year, then that's on them. Then again, many parents don't understand the reasoning sometimes either. Let me give you a hypothetical situation and let you tell me what you would do as the HC in that situation.

You have a 14U team with a #1pitcher throwing low to mid 60's. The other pitchers are solid with good movement, accuracy and great change of speed. You have an outstanding catcher behind the plate. Your outfield is solid and as far as the infield is concerned, the only weak spot is SS. You carried 12 players but due to injuries you are down to 9 (including your SS which is why the position is weak) and need to pick up a sub JIC another player goes down. You pick up an outstanding SS for the weekend which now allows your team to compete and have a chance to go far on Sunday.
On the flipside, 3 of the current 9 remaining players miss 1 out of 2 practices every week due to them playing rec ball instead of practicing with the first team they committed to. You can't do anything about it because the parents see nothing wrong with it. So what do you do? Do you sit the sub SS and be one and done? Is that fair to the rest of the team who need the game experience of continuing to play, the experience of handling the increased pressure to perform as the day goes on and the confidence gained from it? Or do you sit 1 of the 3 that miss half your practices during the week, who can't hit or bunt because of the increased speed of the pitching and was a great OFer at one time but isn't anymore due to her running up on every ball since playing rec ball and watch the balls go over her head instead of drop stepping? But if you do sit this one, all the parents will see is that you lack "commitment" to their DD. So as the HC of this team and given your player situation, who do you sit on Sunday?

Speaking of complex, now you’re really getting my gears turning haha. But, I like a good banter and I’m not afraid to analyze other perspectives. You’re right, happy is relative and let’s face it, sometimes unattainable to certain kids/families. Winning isn’t everything, but competing is nice.

Personally, I think your hypothetical and many issues can be resolved with appropriate coach/parent/player communication. If expectations and philosophies are clear, there should be no question come game day. Kids deserve to compete and you can’t compete with an injured player at SS. Regardless of the Rec ball thing… if that was communicated and clear at the beginning of the season, there should be no question.

I feel like you’re missing my point- you mentioned three kids at Rec and kids hurt, that isn’t the scenario I’m talking about. If a parent can’t justify bringing subs in when players are hurt, this world probably isn’t for them. What about if none of the above apply- or they don’t apply to a specific kid that earned her spot and sits? Now this takes me back to my original post about “B Level Pretenders” because this situation was exactly that… empty promises that state “we aren’t the *insert A level org name* and we aren’t going to just bring in players through the season to replace girls” but that’s exactly what was done. And not saying that’s what any org does, it’s just coach’s way of keeping you thinking his way is the best way and “the other guy” is the bad guy. Is it abuse, no. Is it lying? Yes. And I guess my opinion on if it is understandable to leave mid-season due to this… if there are previous issues, age of the player… crushed confidence is hard to overcome so the younger they are, the more apt I would be to find validity. That’s where I feel that people leaving mid-season don’t always always deserve a bad reputation. Being on your third or fourth team of the season… well that’s pretty questionable

 

[yocoach]

Speaking of complex, now you’re really getting my gears turning haha. But, I like a good banter and I’m not afraid to analyze other perspectives. You’re right, happy is relative and let’s face it, sometimes unattainable to certain kids/families. Winning isn’t everything, but competing is nice.

Personally, I think your hypothetical and many issues can be resolved with appropriate coach/parent/player communication. If expectations and philosophies are clear, there should be no question come game day. Kids deserve to compete and you can’t compete with an injured player at SS. Regardless of the Rec ball thing… if that was communicated and clear at the beginning of the season, there should be no question.

I feel like you’re missing my point- you mentioned three kids at Rec and kids hurt, that isn’t the scenario I’m talking about. If a parent can’t justify bringing subs in when players are hurt, this world probably isn’t for them. What about if none of the above apply- or they don’t apply to a specific kid that earned her spot and sits? Now this takes me back to my original post about “B Level Pretenders” because this situation was exactly that… empty promises that state “we aren’t the *insert A level org name* and we aren’t going to just bring in players through the season to replace girls” but that’s exactly what was done. And not saying that’s what any org does, it’s just coach’s way of keeping you thinking his way is the best way and “the other guy” is the bad guy. Is it abuse, no. Is it lying? Yes. And I guess my opinion on if it is understandable to leave mid-season due to this… if there are previous issues, age of the player… crushed confidence is hard to overcome so the younger they are, the more apt I would be to find validity. That’s where I feel that people leaving mid-season don’t always always deserve a bad reputation. Being on your third or fourth team of the season… well that’s pretty questionable

So in other words, we aren't as far apart as what it seemed initially. But we'll have to agree to just disagree on the timing of leaving. That said, given that situation when my DD was playing TB, I'd probably tell the coach to KMA and leave also if I'm being honest. Then again, I've always coached her so... Also, I've always believed in you play who got you there. That said, I've always treated subs as if they were part of the team when I pick them up. They rotate through the field during pool play just as my other players do and on Sunday, unless there is a specific need for a position player, the won't start on Sundays but will definitely rotate through with my other players. After all, they were gracious enough to go out of their way to drive up to a tournament and help out my team, the least I can do is give them close to comparable playing time since the reason they are subbing in the first place is to compete and get more game experience. IMO, If you don't treat them that way, pretty soon you run out of subs willing to play for you.

As for the hypothetical team situation, you guessed it. That's my team and situation that I'm dealing with right now. Luckily I have great parents and we talk/communicate often. That said, I fully expect to lose the 3 rec ballers at the end of the year since we're moving to 16U and there will be no rec ball allowed.

 

[Rerun]

What a thread! Just think this whole thread started based off another thread.

 

[Green Bean]

So in other words, we aren't as far apart as what it seemed initially. But we'll have to agree to just disagree on the timing of leaving. That said, given that situation when my DD was playing TB, I'd probably tell the coach to KMA and leave also if I'm being honest. Then again, I've always coached her so... Also, I've always believed in you play who got you there. That said, I've always treated subs as if they were part of the team when I pick them up. They rotate through the field during pool play just as my other players do and on Sunday, unless there is a specific need for a position player, the won't start on Sundays but will definitely rotate through with my other players. After all, they were gracious enough to go out of their way to drive up to a tournament and help out my team, the least I can do is give them close to comparable playing time since the reason they are subbing in the first place is to compete and get more game experience. IMO, If you don't treat them that way, pretty soon you run out of subs willing to play for you.

As for the hypothetical team situation, you guessed it. That's my team and situation that I'm dealing with right now. Luckily I have great parents and we talk/communicate often. That said, I fully expect to lose the 3 rec ballers at the end of the year since we're moving to 16U and there will be no rec ball allowed.

We can agree to disagree on the timing, and plus, I’m just talking- never left a team early but I can definitely understand the temptation.

I agree on the use of subs, also… they came to play. They should play. Maybe my issue is better expressed when you don’t NEED a sub, don’t pick up a sub, play your kids! If a player is injured, the sub takes her place in a sense, and any sub should get plenty of reps when she takes her off weekend to come play. Or else you’ll have a hard time pulling a sub the next time!!!

So no, we aren’t that far apart… maybe just on that one thing

 

[wow]

With all due respect MS, snoman did not "hang you" for letting your daughter make a decision, it was for letting her make a clearly bad decision. You said that you up and left in the middle of a season on a team that was: "the right fit, playing almost 100% of innings, batted in the 4 hole, and played on one of the top 12u teams in Ohio, as well as loved her coaches and teammates." If she wanted to "100%" steal the coach's car I would hope you could intervene there. I think people in this post MOSTLY are making a value judgement and saying because of the implications it has to other payers and their families, in only very dire circumstances would you allow a child to leave a team mid-season. You did not paint a picture of very dire circumstances so it appears you allowed your DD to pull the rug out on other parents when they probably did not deserve it.

Also, shame on you snoman! I coached in the Outlaws org for years and you know first hand we all used to make sure your org and my org talked to each other in regards to who was calling us looking to jump. Josh and I used to talk all through tryouts to make sure we weren't "stealing" a player from each other. I know that sounds absolutely nuts from today's standards, but that's what we did out of respect for the game and each other. Saying this "all started with the Outlaws" is not very fair.

Spoken like a true master of the “back room” deal.
Sad travel ball has become such a joke In Ohio

 

[DanMaz]

softball in Ohio is very strong... not sure I would agree that it "has become such a joke". (maybe the things coaches and parents do can be laughed at) but if you look at the big picture from lets say 7 -8 years ago, i see a lot more teams, a lot more C and B teams and venues for them to play in. There are a ton of teams out there. That's what it is all about. Girls in Ohio are playing fastpitch more than they were 7 years ago in my opinion. dont judge the sport or the kids by the dumb stuff adults do... It's their game, let them play.

 

[Kelle saull]

IMO, none of those are good reasons to quit a team mid year. Physical/verbal abuse are just about the only reason to quit a team or straight up lied to about what you're getting for your player fee. Also if your coach was Billy07, no explanation is needed for that one...

I've coached plenty of girls that HATED someone else on the team but during practice/games they got along. As far as too many players in her primary position, that's on the parent or girl depending on age group. Do your homework before you commit or work harder so you're the best one for that position. Don't like the coach, again do your homework. I get there may be extenuating circumstances on that last one but whatever. A non pitcher on her TB team leaving to be a pitcher on what I can only assume is a lesser team to appease their HS coach? To each their own but there's no way in hell I would ever recommend that.

It's a 1 year deal both ways. Once a commitment is made, it most instances, it should be honored.

No disrespect to you on your opinions, I just see it differently.

Who's Billy 07?