Poaching Players & Jumping Ship

[default]

DM

You have made my day.

I am not the orge my post may have depicted. And while I hate that coach the situation is very complicated. We have a relationship with the coach. My wife played with her in HS, our daughters played on our Travel Team for 2 years (they left this year), and girls are in the same class and play on the same school teams (VB, BB, SB). And beside the bruises from the sliding she can not do much more damage.

The point I was trying to make is that letting our kids suffer is probably the best gift we can give them at times. I am not talking about spirit killing, but it is OK IMO if they are unhappy and miserable at times. It should not be the theme of their childhood but the bitter taste of the unfair aspects of life will help them learn and go. I guess for me I would not pull my DD from a team for lack of playing time, but I would for destructive verbal abuse.

I only have one child (3 girls 1 boy) who has shown the type of drive and ability to play D1 or D2 athletics. And she will probably be too short to play D1. I doubt she will get over 5'2". But I will not tell her that as it will not stop her dream regardless. The rest need to keep hitting the books.

 

[default]

While I agree that your DD needs to know that coaches like this exist, there is NO WAY I would let my DD player for someone like that. Rapists exist too, would you put your DD well being in the hands of someone like that as well? This is a sport, a sport where your DD came be permanently injured by a ignorant coach that gets their jollies by pushing around pre-teen girls. Life lessons shouldn't leave permanent scars!



This has got to be the most overused saying there is and it is complete ****. This saying was coined about physical conditioning and at some point it started being applied to every aspect of life. It has become an excuse for inaction and/or abuse in every facet of life.



Success means different things to different people, for some it culminates it a D1 scholarship and in others it is life-long memories and friendships.

Okay enough, I guess I am in a mood today. I'll blame it on lack of sunshine.

Actually, that saying is a quote by Friedrich Nietzsche and is totally unrelated to sports but rather the human condition in general.

And I think comparing a bad coach to a rapist is a bit extreme. I would have to say I agree with Spartansd. If there was no imminent or implied danger, I would prefer my child learn to deal with these people rather than running away. In the work world, you come across idiots like this all the time. You can't keep running. But you can teach your child how to come out ahead.

You can't and you shouldn't protect your kids from adversity. That is why kids are so screwed up these days. They are babied and coddled and can't take care of things themselves.

 

[default]

As for jumping ship, I think travel ball is a little different as for "lifes lessons". In schoolball you have to play the hand that is dealt to you. You tell your daughter "that is how it goes in many things in life" and that is a valuable life lesson.
In travel ball you are paying $2,000 to $5,000 per year to play. I think when you are spending that kind of money you deserve to be somewhat satisfied. I understand that the better girls will play more but the less talented girls need to be treated fairly (maybe pitch a pool game on Saturday, get a couple innings at her preferred postion in pool play)
This probably summarizes my point: If your daughter bought a computer for $1,000 and it didn't work would you say "toughen up kid, life is tough"?? No you would say honey you are being taken advantage of, you take that back right now! And that too is a valuable life lesson. That is just how I look at it.

 

[default]

And I think comparing a bad coach to a rapist is a bit extreme. I would have to say I agree with Spartansd. If there was no imminent or implied danger, I would prefer my child learn to deal with these people rather than running away. In the work world, you come across idiots like this all the time. You can't keep running. But you can teach your child how to come out ahead.

I agree that the example is a bit on the extreme side, but my point was that you don't purposely put your DD in a situation that you know is going to get her hurt. If you have an abusive coach you avoid them, you don't go to the bad side of town at night by yourself, you don't ride with a friend that is drunk, etc.....

I teach my DD to conquer adversity and that not all situations are handled the same. The best way to ensure that you are the best prepared is to be the best educated. You will never be stuck in a crappy job, have to deal with an abusive boss, etc. if you have a good education. A good education gives you choices, just like superior skills gives you choices on what team to play for. Granted school ball is limited on choices. LoL

Difficult people are usually difficult because they can get away with it, much like bullies. In my opinion, by tollerating it you are enabling them to be the way they are. Don't impower these jack-wads, teach your kids to have enough self respect to stand-up to them. They may not come out of the situation without a few bruises (figuratively of course), but they will command respect and feel a whole lot better about themself.

I didn't mean to be so confrontational about this, guess I'm in a bad mood today.

 

[default]

Well I am going to give my take on this. This is my daughters first year of travel ball. So knowing that here it goes. I would not want another coach trying to get her to switch teams in the current softball year. However I would not be opposed to a coach talking to me about where they think she is skill wise and ideas to help her improve. If they would be interested in possibly looking at her for the next year. Now some of you may not agree with that, but as a parent IF I was to consider a change for the next year I would want to do my homework. I would want to watch a few games being played by those teams. I as a parent would want to watch and see this coach and staff during a game. I would also want to see how they treat the girls, during the Game and in between games. Then I could compare where we are and decide. Because just maybe the grass is not greener on the other side. So I would want the oppurtunity to watch and Grade each coach and organization. I would want to eliminate from consideration the coach that would not be a good fit for the dd. Also I would be able to sit in the stands and hear what parents of current players say about the coaches.
I would not want my daughter to switch after commitment! After the year is over I think every parent should sit back evaluate everything. First and formost would be the dd. How did she play, skills, and growth since start of season. Did the coaching staff help her
grow, did they play in tournaments that will help her to go to the next level, did they teach her the "game". Does your daughter want tell you she desires to play at the next level? Does she have the potential, drive and work ethic. If she does which coach will help her get there is it the one she has or not.
I have a lot to learn this season. I hope to meet great people and learn more about the game. I also would not discuss anything with my daughter during current season. She is committed and want her to play that way. But being 11u and being first year I would have to decide if she stays with her team through 18u would that expose her to the right people? I also would have to evaluate tournaments that they play and don't play.
Wow that's alot of stuff.
Mike Barrett
Ok now you can tell me how wrong I am in my thinking!Lol

I agree with every word Mike!! I believe most families start out with very similar views and expectations of their children. Although for some the closer we get to our children reaching those goals set so long ago our vision gets clouded. I would love to see my dd play college ball someday but it really is more important to me that we dont lose those views we started out with. Good Luck with your daughters first season!!! It really is a fun and interesting at times ride...

 

[default]

I have to say this is a fun and interesting topic.

..........

The bigger issue we have is that the team is quite good (12U level) and finding another player is almost impossible. We are going to spend a whole summer I fear patching up our line-up. With only 10 girls it is just going to be a pain. While all 10 are very dedicated, injuries and life happen. A team needs 11 minimum and 12 to be solid IMO. And now we are we facing the possibility of going through a season short handed.

I would never allow my daughters to leave a team after tryouts..........period. What ever happens is a life lesson good or bad. You make a commitment and you honor it.

Spartansd, the following is in no way doubting your coaching ability. I have never met you so I wouldn't know. But every once in a while, a coach and his staff need to sit back and ask "Am I a manager or am I a coach?" (No coach will admit this, but we all slip into the manager mode from time to time) A manager is a person that manuevers players in a line-up. A coach will find another player and teach/train that player to fill a need on the team. 10U and 12U is about developing skills. 14U is about developing and starting to hone those skills and 16U/18U is about continued honing of those skills first learned at the 10U/12U level.

This, to me, is the most rewarding stage. Nothing better than too watch a girl use skills that you taught her.

 

[default]

Spartansd, the following is in no way doubting your coaching ability. I have never met you so I wouldn't know. But every once in a while, a coach and his staff need to sit back and ask "Am I a manager or am I a coach?" (No coach will admit this, but we all slip into the manager mode from time to time) A manager is a person that manuevers players in a line-up. A coach will find another player and teach/train that player to fill a need on the team. 10U and 12U is about developing skills. 14U is about developing and starting to hone those skills and 16U/18U is about continued honing of those skills first learned at the 10U/12U level.

This, to me, is the most rewarding stage. Nothing better than too watch a girl use skills that you taught her.

It is my wife and she is very much a coach. The issue is that as your teams progress you can not always start from stratch. You need to have girls who are at similar levels so they can all move forward. What is frustrating in this case is that the child and parent were not buying in and then once they had squeezed all the milk possible they jumped.

I agree with the coach vs manager stuff. Our program is pretty much all coaching until 14U. We seem to get some really talented girls showing up at 14U tryouts and above. But the 10U and 12U for the most part are all home grown and it makes it difficult to maintain a certain level of play on the field. That is why is stinks that this girl left because she was starting to progress. We have girls on our "B" 12U team that would easily fit in but they have started to bond and we do not want to distrurb that teams mojo so to speak.

In our experience it seems to go like this:

10U - all local kids, parents will not drive far for 10U

12U - window opens up to 30-45 minutes away, but still local

14U - girls and parents shop for best teams the players can make

16U - it is an all out warfare, kids drive 2-3 hours, crazy

So IMO at 10U and 12U you are at the mercy of the local kids. The problem is that we lost 4 girls to 14U and one to another 12U. So we had to really work hard at tryouts to pick girls that we could "coach up". And to lose one stinks because finding another is impossible. And we will not poach from another team or our own. So we sit hoping a girl with speed who wants to learn shows up.

 

[default]

Unless your name is Kavorkian!!

Hijack, no pun intended - Kevorkian actually ended up in jail for assisting suicides when we lived in the Detroit area. We saw him running around Home Depot one Saturday and I told my husband he was probably picking up parts for his suicide machine.

On topic, my dd begged and cried to quit HS volleyball one year and I made her stick it out until it was over. I met with the coach and the AD after the season and so did many other players and parents. We had a new coach the following season.

 

[default]

I see nothing wrong with a coach coming over and talking with my dd and asking her to come and try out after her commitment / season is over. Now asking her to jump ship during the season is wrong. I try to teach my dd that when you commit to something you stick with it no matter what. I look at a coach asking her to try out after the season like buying a car we look at this model and then this model then we decide to buy this one because we feel it fits our needs the best. Is that a knock on the old car no were just trying to better ourself and our needs. Now we could be wrong we could end up with a lemon but we also could end up with a Cadillac. Who knows

 

[default]

We also may like the model we all ready have.

 

[default]

Tippy's Dad:

Don't feel like you have posted anything controversial. No one signs on through 18U simply by joining an 11U team. Tryout season is open season, though if the existing team has made a pre-tryout commitment that the player is being asked back, I would hope that the player would be honest with the existing coach about whether the player will be looking for a better position (in which case the existing coach can also look around for that player's spot; if player and team end up on the same page at the end of that looking process, more's the better, but it has to be a two-way street when it comes to a "looking" phase).

Anyway, back to your point: getting educated about other teams during the summer game season is not only ok, it is the hallmark of a parent who has his or her daughter's best interest at heart. Even talking to other coaches (or other coaches talking to you) during summer ball about possibilities for the next year is imho perfectly fine. It is the poaching by coaches and jumping by players after tryouts have been completed and commitments have been made (absent some fairly compelling circumstances for the player) that is, again imho, inexcusable.

 

[default]

So, in people's minds, what is acceptable by coaches, during the summer tournament season? In my mind, it is clearly NEVER OK to try to get someone to change teams once they are committed. Nor is it right to approach someone and tell them they could do better and that they should join your team instead next year. But do people think that there would be anything wrong with approaching an individual family in between games at a tournament, and say that you had watched them play and were impressed by them ... and then invite them to try out for your team in August after the current tournament season is over, and/or to invite them to watch your team in action while they are at the tournament? I have never done this, but I am trying to understand better where people draw the line as to what is acceptable and, whether I as a coach, would or should be offended if that happened to one of my current players at a tournament.

 

[default]

Tippy's Dad:

Don't feel like you have posted anything controversial. No one signs on through 18U simply by joining an 11U team. Tryout season is open season, though if the existing team has made a pre-tryout commitment that the player is being asked back, I would hope that the player would be honest with the existing coach about whether the player will be looking for a better position (in which cash the existing coach can also look around for that player's spot; if player and team end up on the same page at the end of that looking process, more's the better, but it has to be a two-way street when it comes to a "looking" phase).

Anyway, back to your point: getting educated about other teams during the summer game season is not only ok, it is the hallmark of a parent who has his or her daughter's best interest at heart. Even talking to other coaches (or other coaches talking to you) during summer ball about possibilities for the next year is imho perfectly fine. It is the poaching by coaches and jumping by players after tryouts have been completed and commitments have been made (absent some fairly compelling circumstances for the player) that is, again imho, inexcusable.

If this was Facebook I would hit the like button cgs!!

 

[default]

So, in people's minds, what is acceptable by coaches, during the summer tournament season? In my mind, it is clearly NEVER OK to try to get someone to change teams once they are committed. Nor is it right to approach someone and tell them they could do better and that they should join your team instead next year. But do people think that there would be anything wrong with approaching an individual family in between games at a tournament, and say that you had watched them play and were impressed by them ... and then invite them to try out for your team in August after the current tournament season is over, and/or to invite them to watch your team in action while they are at the tournament? I have never done this, but I am trying to understand better where people draw the line as to what is acceptable and, whether I as a coach, would or should be offended if that happened to one of my current players at a tournament.

I see nothing wrong with another coach walking up to my dd during season and telling her she has potential and if she is not already committed the following year to the team she is on to come to their tryouts...I agree with what cgs stated as far as parents and players doing their homework. Jumping ship once committed for the season not ok! Poaching not ok!! Most Organization that we have been acquainted with ask players to sign some sort of code of conduct during their season. I think ASA, NSA and all other sanctions should have the Coaches sign a code of conduct as well. Prohibiting Poaching first on the list! JMHO

 

[default]

Sounds like everybody is on the same page here for the most part. And i agree with most, but whether it is right, wrong, or indifferent it is going to happen. So as a player, parent, or coach the question becomes how you deal with situation. Live by a higher standard and have a true value system. The greatest thing i love about fastpitch softball is that it is like real life. It affords me many parenting opportunities at an accelerated pace.

 

[default]

Tippy's Dad:

Don't feel like you have posted anything controversial. No one signs on through 18U simply by joining an 11U team. Tryout season is open season, though if the existing team has made a pre-tryout commitment that the player is being asked back, I would hope that the player would be honest with the existing coach about whether the player will be looking for a better position (in which case the existing coach can also look around for that player's spot; if player and team end up on the same page at the end of that looking process, more's the better, but it has to be a two-way street when it comes to a "looking" phase).

Anyway, back to your point: getting educated about other teams during the summer game season is not only ok, it is the hallmark of a parent who has his or her daughter's best interest at heart. Even talking to other coaches (or other coaches talking to you) during summer ball about possibilities for the next year is imho perfectly fine. It is the poaching by coaches and jumping by players after tryouts have been completed and commitments have been made (absent some fairly compelling circumstances for the player) that is, again imho, inexcusable.

Thank you cgs! For those of us whos dd's waited until August to switch teams but are being accused of "jumping ship" and being bashed in this forum, I thank you for your words.

 

[default]

So, in people's minds, what is acceptable by coaches, during the summer tournament season? In my mind, it is clearly NEVER OK to try to get someone to change teams once they are committed. Nor is it right to approach someone and tell them they could do better and that they should join your team instead next year. But do people think that there would be anything wrong with approaching an individual family in between games at a tournament, and say that you had watched them play and were impressed by them ... and then invite them to try out for your team in August after the current tournament season is over, and/or to invite them to watch your team in action while they are at the tournament? I have never done this, but I am trying to understand better where people draw the line as to what is acceptable and, whether I as a coach, would or should be offended if that happened to one of my current players at a tournament.

I don't even have a problem with the "approach someone and tell them they could do better and that they should join your team instead next year" as long as there aren't arguably untruthful allegations against the current team involved or malicious creation of drama for the current team. We've never done the "you could do better" thing, but I can't fault other coaches for that approach nor could I guarantee that we would never see a diamond in the rough ("rough" would include pretty poor coaching and limited commitment to developing/showcasing the player so she might have a shot at playing in college) that might cause us to talk to the player's parents during the summer season about the potential benefits of joining us the next year. If we lose a player the following year because of a "you could do better" pitch made to our player during the current season, it's either because we didn't do enough to make the player want to stay OR the new team for the player really is in her best interest (and the reasons for that best interest could run a gamut that might include more playing time, better coaching, or a team that can create more exposure opportunities for the player; could even be that the player has already made a verbal commitment to a college and doesn't want to travel as much as she anticipates our schedule to call for).

One point, however: the parents and the player should exercise some consideration for the existing team if they are going to watch another team play during a tournament. Make sure it doesn't interfere with any team bonding activities and it is always easier and more polite to simply tell other team members or coaches that you are going to watch "X" play because it should be a really good game or because you want to help scout "X" team for your present coaches. Shoot, we've taken our entire team to see games for those reasons, so we'd have no reason to suspect there was anything else at stake. :cap:

 

[default]

Thank you cgs! For those of us whos dd's waited until August to switch teams but are being accused of "jumping ship" and being bashed in this forum, I thank you for your words.

Changing teams in August when your proir commitment is finished is NOT jumping ship!!! Anyone who told you that is full of poo. No coach owns any player, with the exception of our dd's. When a player signs for me I have her until August, after that it is up to the player to decide whether she wants to return or move on another team.

Just because a coach is talking to a player during a tournament does not mean they are trying to poach her. I talk to a hundred girls during tournaments but it doesn't mean I am trying to get them on my team. Players come and go and we like to keep in touch with as many as we can and see how things are going for them. I think alot of the coaches assume because you are chatting with them that you are trying to steal them. I've had an opposing coach hand one of my catchers a card when we were shaking hands at the end of the game and then pull her aside and try to smooze her. We were in the dugout laughing and we teased the cr@p out of her for a week, but we weren't mad. If you are a good coach you don't have to worry about it, the players who you want to return will.

 

[default]

Funky:

If your position includes poaching during the current commitment season, it won't be popular at all. Have you ever tried to coach/manage a team that loses players mid-season to a poacher?

As to your statement that if coaches don't poach "they likely won't be around long", I only know less than a handful of poachers who have any longevity and I know a boatload of fine travel ball coaches who have the integrity not to poach and who have been firmly established for years and in many cases decades.

 

[default]

It's interesting that, with the exception of maybe 1 poster, everyone is against poaching, but it's ridiculously common. I know of a couple organizations that do it, that bash other orgs, promise playing time, and they always have people signing to their teams. It's frustrating to watch.

Our DD played for a team at the beginning of the summer last year, whose coach we ended up being less than crazy about. There would have been no question of us quitting the team until the end of the season. Thankfully for her, the coach decided not to play anymore that summer, shortly after our first tourney with them. She ended up with another team and finished out a great summer. People don't have the same concept of commitment as they used to. And they are passing that quality on to their children.