Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Question on lookback rule - bret?

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I have probably a simple question but I am not sure what the ruling is. The scenario is runner at 3rd and pitcher just walked a batter. The catcher immediately threw the ball to the pitcher. Walked runner continues on to second.

My question is in two parts - Does the pitcher having the ball in the circle require the runner at 3rd to return or go? And does it apply to the runner heading to first? Meaning if they start to 2nd can they return to 1st?

I believe that in a manner the ball is in play until the runner stops but I am curious to confirm.
 
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Correct. The LBR does not come into play until the B/R stops at a base.
 
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The Look Back Rule is one of those rules that seems to cause a lot of confusion. Here are a few key points.

The Look Back Rule is in effect when:

- The pitcher has the ball within the sixteen-foot diameter pitching circle and is neither making a play on a runner, or faking a play (such as raising her arm as if to throw).

- On a play where the batter has become a batter-runner (that is, has aquired the right to advance to first base, either by a hit, an uncaught third strike or a walk), the Look Back Rule is not in effect until the batter-runner touches first base.

When the Look Back Rule is in effect, the ball remains live and the runners may:

- Stop on a base. Once stopped, if they leave the base they are out.

- Continue advancing around the bases.

- If they stop between two bases, the stop can only be momentary. After stopping, they must immediately either advance to the next base or retreat to the previous one. If they stand still in one spot longer than the time it takes to pick up the ball, read the play and decide to advance or retreat, they are out.

- If stopping between the bases, the runners are allowed only one stop and may reverse direction only one time. If they stop a second time, or reverse direction a second time, they are out.

Additionally:

- Whenever the Look Back Rule is in effect, it applies to all baserunners.

- If the rule is violated, the ball is immediately dead and the violating runner is out. Any other runners are placed on their base last touched base.

Plugging all this into the play you posted:

Ball four is issued and ball returned to pitcher, who is in the circle and does not attempt or fake a play. The runner on third may lead off, stand there or dance around all she wants until the Look back Rule kicks in. She isn't required to advance or retreat until the batter-runner actually touches first base.

Once first base is touched, the runner on third is bound by all of the Look Back Rule restrictions. At that point, she must either advance or retreat, etc.

The batter-runner, as long as she does not stop on first base, may round the base and continue toward second. Once she does that, she is limited to her one stop and one change of direction.

There is no limit on how far she advances before stopping. She could run all the way to within an inch of second base, then stop and head back to first.

Hope that answers your questions!
 
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I didn't know about the one stop dealio. Lucky I never yell at umps, I might have been wrong :lmao:
 
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Sweet Brettman - Pitcher is receiving the ball at the very back of the circle. When that runner rounds and heads to 2nd we are going to turn and flip to 2nd, tag and throw to home. The key was i needed that runner to be on the bag for U10 to have a high percent to get them out. Now that they need to get back once 1st base is hit I have a great chance at getting 2 outs.
 
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If the pitcher is on the rubber with the ball before the batter/runner is at first base, is the LBR still in effect...
 
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This is another common misconception that comes up a lot.

The pitcher's plate exists only with respect to the pitching rules and how the pitcher must contact it before pitching. Once those requirements are met, and the pitch is thrown, the pitcher's plate has zero relevence and no bearing on any other play or rules. It becomes, in essence, just another patch of dirt in fair territory.

Many misinterpret the Look Back Rule as meaning that once the pitcher touches the rubber, it acts as kind of a "stop button" that freezes the advance of runners. This is not the case. The only "locational" requirement of the LBR is that the pitcher be within- anywhere within- the pitching circle.

Of course, if the pitcher has the ball and is on the rubber, she is by definition within the pitching circle. So, in that respect, the LBR will be in effect- as soon as the batter-runner touches first base.

(**Disclaimer: If you are by chance playing under official Little League softball rules, they are the lone rule set that I'm aware of that DOES NOT have the requirement of the B/R touching first base before the LBR kicks in. Under their rules, the LBR is in effect for all runners as soon as the batter is entitled to advance to first base. They are kind of the "odd man out" with respect to this one aspect of the rule. The rest of their LBR is the same as ASA, high school, etc.)
 
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But it is not in effect if the pitcher has the ball raised even when not in the circle? Correct?
 
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Sweet Brettman - Pitcher is receiving the ball at the very back of the circle. When that runner rounds and heads to 2nd we are going to turn and flip to 2nd, tag and throw to home. The key was i needed that runner to be on the bag for U10 to have a high percent to get them out. Now that they need to get back once 1st base is hit I have a great chance at getting 2 outs.

There is no speed at which the runner on third has to retreat. So, the runner on 3rd base can still be off of the bag as long as she is retreating. She could be bolting back or she could moseying back, just as long as she doesn't stop.
 
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But it is not in effect if the pitcher has the ball raised even when not in the circle? Correct?

If the pitcher is not in the circle, then the Look Back Rule is NEVER in effect, no matter what the pitcher is doing with the ball. Having the ball in the circle is one of the requirements of the rule.

If she is in the circle, and raises the ball/throwing arm as if to make a throw, then that is considered as a "fake throw" and is the same as "making a play" on a runner. Whenever the pitcher makes a play, the LBR is suspended- at least temporarily.

The runners are given the chance to react to the "fake throw" (they can stop or reverse as they wish while the LBR is suspended), but once the pitcher stops her "fake" then the LBR goes back into effect.
 
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I disagree with you wvanalmsick. You must retreat to the bag with obvious intent. Just ask Japan about that one. They lost a chance to win what I think they called World Cup to the US by slowly retreating to first. Of course depends on the quality of the umpire. If you are retreating too slowly you could be called out.
 
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I disagree with you wvanalmsick. You must retreat to the bag with obvious intent. Just ask Japan about that one. They lost a chance to win what I think they called World Cup to the US by slowly retreating to first. Of course depends on the quality of the umpire. If you are retreating too slowly you could be called out.

I must disagree. As long as she is moving in a continuous motion, one way or the other, no matter how slow, she should not be called out.
 
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The Look Back Rule really doesn't address the speed at which a player must advance or retreat at all. She can leisurely stroll toward a base or hustle in like Pete Rose. Either is fine as long as she is MOVING.

The one stop the runner is allowed between bases is somewhat loosely defined by the rule, in that it says once stopped the runner must "immediately" either advance or retreat. What is "immediate", how long does it last and how do you measure it?

As a matter of standard umpire training, we are taught to interpret the length of "immediately" like this: Just long enough for the runner to pick up the ball, access its location and any pending play, then advance or retreat accordingly.

Generally, once the runner stops, the umpire should begin a silent count of "one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two" and if the runner isn't moving by then she's in jeopardy of being called out.

The Look Back violation in The World Cup game with Japan was an interesting way to end the game. Almost to a man, every umpire I discussed this with thought that the runner was called out too quickly- that is, when the runner stopped after rounding first base, the umpire's "silent count" was closer to about "half-a-thousand" before she banged the runner out.

Also, the umpire that made this call (the plate umpire) didn't seem to be positioned well enough to see both the pitcher and the runner at the same time. That makes it kind of hard to make a good judgment of two simultaneously occuring events.

Not only the timing element of this call may have been violated, but also the very spirit, intent and purpose of the rule itself.

The whole reason that the Look Back Rule was invented in the first place was to put and end to the "cat and mouse" games between runners and the pitcher that were creating long game delays and some farcical baserunning situations. Part of that can be attributed to the relative closeness of the bases as opposed to baseball (60 feet vs. 90 feet). Runners would routinely dance back and forth off the base, advance half-way and just stand there, or perform other stalling tactics to try to force a play by the pitcher, in hopes of either allowing another runner to advance or forcing a bad throw by the pitcher.

You can only image how out of control this might get. A runner stops half-way between first and second and just stands there, while the pitcher holds the ball in one long "standoff. Or, a runner advances, retreats, advances, retreats numerous times while the pitcher pump fakes, stops, pumps again, stops...

To put an end to this, ASA wrote the Look Back Rule (I belive it was around the late 1970's to 1980 period- before my time as an umpire!) The new rule essentially allowed the pitcher to "look back" the runners, forcing an end to cat and mouse games.

The rule isn't there to stop runners from advancing- they still can within certain limits. It also isn't there to be used as a "gotcha!" by the umpires to steal quick and easy outs. The spirit and itent of the rule is to avoid unecessary game delays, nothing more.
 
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What exactly constitutes a play on a runner? A raised arm? A spin towards the runner with no arm raised? Simply looking at the runner but making no other motions at all? Is it different with each umpire or a standard that is set?
 
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In a way it's different with each umpire, because it is based on judgment and no two people will have 100% identical perceptions, viewpoints or judgment.

Here is a snippet from the ASA Rules Supplement in the back of their rule book that explains what the umpire should be looking for:

While in the circle and in possession of the ball, any act by the pitcher that, in the umpire's judgment, causes the runner to react is considered making a play.

So, there really isn't any cut and dried list of specific moves a pitcher can or can't make. It is judgment- but the judgment should be grounded in the spirit, intent and actual purpose of the rule.

Raising the throwing arm while holding the ball, as if preparing to make a throw, should probably always be judged as making a play.

Same with an actual "pump fake" that simulates a throwing motion.

Standing still with the arm at the side should not be considered as making a play.

Standing still and turning to look at the runner, with no associated throwing motion or movement of the throwing arm would not be a play.

Holding the ball in the glove, then taking several quick steps in the runner's direction, as if intending to leave the circle and execute a tag can be a form of making a play.

These are all examples of how I personally would base my judgment on whether or not a play was being made, attempted or faked. Your mileage might vary with another umpire, but I feel that these all adhere to the spirit and intent of the rule, as well as the ASA point of emphasis.
 
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From my short experience this rule has been interpreted differently on many occasions. The latest call was the walked runner was jogging to first. The catcher fired back the ball to the pitcher anticipating the continuous walk. The runner on third was 5 feet off the base and was called out immediately (1 second) because the ball was back in the circle and she did not retreat. We argued that the girl going to first had not reached first base and therefore she did not have to decide which direction to go yet. Was the umpire wrong? Because of this call we now have our girls get on third base ready to run as soon as the pitcher gets the ball in the circle even though the girl going to first is only half way there. This puts our runner at third in a disadvantage if the pitcher should turn and throw to second base. Was this a blown call & what should we do because now our baserunners are confused?
 
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From my short experience this rule has been interpreted differently on many occasions. The latest call was the walked runner was jogging to first. The catcher fired back the ball to the pitcher anticipating the continuous walk. The runner on third was 5 feet off the base and was called out immediately (1 second) because the ball was back in the circle and she did not retreat. We argued that the girl going to first had not reached first base and therefore she did not have to decide which direction to go yet. Was the umpire wrong? Because of this call we now have our girls get on third base ready to run as soon as the pitcher gets the ball in the circle even though the girl going to first is only half way there. This puts our runner at third in a disadvantage if the pitcher should turn and throw to second base. Was this a blown call & what should we do because now our baserunners are confused?

According to an earlier response, the runner is NOT obliged to go back to third or move towards home UNTIL the batter/runner has touched first base. ***but I have seen this called many different ways so that is why I always have our runner on third go back when the ball is in the circle, even if it is a walk***
 
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KY25,

That was a bad call.

I would suggest having your team's coach, a team representative or school administrator contact whoever assigns the umpires for your games and discuss this call.

You would hope that if their umpires are misiterpreting a rule that they would be interested in setting him straight, to avoid future problems.
 
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