Rules Question

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Runner on third, one out. Batter hits ground ball to third baseman who is playing up. Third baseman looks runner back and fires to first. Base ump calls batter-runner out. First baseman fires home to get runner on third at home plate and runner is safe. During this the batter runner continues to second base. Offense coach says 1st base pulled foot. Base ump asks plate ump for help and plate ump says yes 1st baseman pulled foot batter runner was safe. Do you leave batter-runner at second or put her back on first??

Defense coach says they didnt even consider throwing to second because she was already called out.

 

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JUDGEMENT CALL! If runner could of advanced on throw home then I'd say she is safe at second! Otherwise it would depend on continuation of the play and a judgment call to bring her back or leave her!!

 

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Wow. I think I would fall back on the God rule and leave her on first base, since the defense reasonably relied upon the umpire's original incorrect call. I think common sense dictates this result.

 

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I wil go with JoeA1010 on this one, he's been around the game longer than I have! Safe at First is good!

 

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why would you put her back at first. the ball is still live, and she can advance. leave her at second.

 

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I think the umpires need to determine whether or not the batter-runner would have been safe at second base if the base ump would have made the correct call. If they believe she would have made it to second, then she gets second. If they believe a play at second could have been made, then she goes back to first. Pure judgement call.......

Len

 

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However....wouldn't the batter-runner be out until an appeal is made by the base umpire to the plate umpire? Seems like the batter-runner would not be allowed to stay at second.

Bretman?????

 

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However....wouldn't the batter-runner be out until an appeal is made by the base umpire to the plate umpire? Seems like the batter-runner would not be allowed to stay at second.

Bretman?????

Good question.....I'm going by the same thinking as an obstruction call. If a fielder obstructs a runner and it is seen by the umpire, the umpire awards that runner the base the umpire feels she would have reached had she not been obstructed.

Since the runner continued in this situation and made it to 2nd base, and I know the defensive player did not throw because she heard the umpire call the batter-runner out at first, which the dish ump overturned, I'm thinking that the umpires need to determine whether the batter-runner would have made it to second if the defensive player would have attempted a play at 2nd base. If the ump feels she would have made it, she's awarded 2nd, otherwise she goes back to first. You can't call the batter-runner out at 2nd because no attempt was made. I could be totally off base but it just seems to make sense to me. The ultimate purpose of the umpires is to get the call and the situation correct.

Len

 

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The "God Rule" is ASA rule 10-3-C. This rule reads, in part: "The plate umpire may rectify any sitiuation in which the reversal of an umpire's decision or delayed call by an umpire places a batter-runner, a runner or the defensive team in jeopardy."

Since there isn't any set in stone rule that says, "This is what you do when an out call is changed to a safe call...", 10-3-C allows the plate umpire to come up with whatever solution he judges would remedy the reversed call.

On this play, the defensive team has been placed in jeopardy. There is the possibility that they might have played upon the batter-runner if she had not initially been called out.

The answer to where you place the batter-runner is...wherever the plate umpire thinks she should be! She's not automatically on second, or automatically on first. You have to take in the entire play and see how the players reacted to the initial call. Then, place any runners where they most likely would have been if the right call was made in the first place.

Did F3 fire directly home without hesitation, as you would normally expect with a runner breaking for home? If the batter-runner had been called safe the first time, would she have made it to second on the throw home anyway? Was there a delay in the play after the out call at first, where the defense would have even had any reasonable thought of making the throw to second?

Beats me- I didn't see the play! But that is the thought process the plate umpire has to go through before he can decide which base to place the runner. He has to ask himself, "Without the reversal, what would have been the most likely outcome of the play?".

 

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Love the "God" rule, although I think some umpires take that part of their job a little too far lol. Let's put this twist on it. Say after the girl was called out at first base she went back into the dugout, the ball was eventually returned to the pitcher in the circle and then the offensive team asked for help on the pulled foot and it was determined that yes, she is safe. That team would go nuts if the umpires then said, "but she is out now becuase she's off the base with the ball in the circle." Now that's a call that would end with some ejections I think. With the information given, I think you need to put that girl back on first base. The umpire calling her "out" is the equivalent of calling a hit ball "foul" and thus the defense "eases up." JMO

 

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Definitely put her back on first! If the player entered the dugout only because the umpire told her she was out, no way in the world do you call her out for leaving the field if the call is reversed.

There was a controversial play on the field right next to mine this weekend, where one of the parents watching the game asked me about it afterwards. This one would have been the perfect example of applying rule 10-3-C!

There was a play at a base and, somehow, BOTH umpires made a call. Now that is never supposed to happen, but sometimes it does. If they both make the same call, they might be off the hook. But if they make opposite calls, you have a real problem! (Umpires have a name for that, but I'm not going to repeat in on a G-rated forum!).

So, one umpire yells, "Safe!", and the other umpire yells, "Out!". The poor kid on the bases is confused and steps off the base- then the fielder tags her again!

The story I got from the parent is that the umpires enforced the out on the second tag, after the kid stepped off the base.

No way, Jose! Not in one of my games! Maybe she really was out in the first place. That is something for the umpires to sort out. But no way would I recognize the second tag if the player left the base due to an umpire screw up!

 

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Thanks for all the responses. In our game the girl was left at second (with no argument or even discussion by anyone) and the coach never asked about it til after the inning. I think it was probably the correct placement anyways as she took off for second right away on the throw home. By the time the catcher makes the tag and then turns and throws to second there would have been no play anyway.

 

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Nice piece of running and good coaching continuing with the play if they thought first base pulled her foot. Many players wouldn't have continued on after the "out" call.