TIME LIMITS (Again)

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After seeing a lot of posts lately about time limits, a couple of thoughts came to mind:

1) The first is for the folks that run ASA qualifying tournaments in Ohio.

It is my understanding that all qualifiers (ie: any tournament with national championship ramifications) must be played with ASA rules exactly as they appear in their rule book. Non-qualifiers are free to adopt, modify, ignore or change any rule as they see fit. Games that are part of championship play must be played under championship rules- that is, "by the book".

ASA rules state that if time limits are used, the time limit must be one hour and forty minutes. Yet, it seems that many qualifiers routinely use shorter time limits.

Have Ohio TD's been granted some sort of waiver in following this rule? Has the issue ever come up that using shorter time limits violates the ASA directive to use championship rules in championship play?

2) The second applies to any tournament or sanctioning body.

One of the biggest complaints about time limits is that they can lead to stalling tactics being used. Generally, we have two options with time limits: Drop dead (which people seem to universally hate), or; Finish the inning (which many seem to regard as the lesser of the two evils).

I have become aware of some leages and tournaments that have devised a third method for timed games. The goal of this method is to eliminate stalling and all of the headaches associated with it.

For example:

Instead of, say, a 1:20 time limit and finish the inning, how about a slightly shorter time limit (maybe 1:00 or 1:10). When the clock expires, finish the inning you are in, THEN play one more inning.

On the whole, games would last about the same amount of time, if you have adjusted the shorter time limit accordingly. You would still have games that might end in a tie and require the tie-breaker rule come into play, but that can happen no matter what time limit is used. You could still have games end under the run-ahead rule, just as you would in any other game.

The advantage of this format is that you totally eliminate any incentive for teams to use stalling tactics. Stalling becomes a non-issue, as a team gains nothing by it. A team cannot "freeze out" their opponent by sitting on a lead and waiting for the clock to expire, because no matter what happens another full inning will be played.

It would also end the silly things you can see when the clock is running down, a trailing team wants to get into the next inning as quickly as possible and they begin purposely making outs (leaving bases early, stepping on the plate to hit the ball, swinging at pitches over their head, etc.). They don't have to make a mockery of the game, because another full inning will always be played.

Time limits are a fact of life and probably won't be going away anytime soon. If we are forced to use them, why not tweak the format to eliminate some of the biggest problems associated with them?
 
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bret... I like your thinking!!! You have my vote for ASA Commissioner!
 
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What would you think about something along the lines of: No new inning after 1:15, if time expires in the top of the inning you revert back, if it expires in the bottom you finish the inning.

Bret..., your idea does have some serious merit. I wonder how that would be received.
 
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I second that Johnnies !!!! I have always wondered and thought about Number 1 thought, Bretman. You know you opened a can of worms with that thought.

Can hear Warren now after numerous e-mails and phone calls, " Who is this Bretman?" ... LOL

You going to Massillon on the 13th for classes? >>>> LOL
 
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Does anyone else feel this way?

beating-a-dead-horse.gif
 
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Can hear Warren now after numerous e-mails and phone calls, " Who is this Bretman?" ... LOL

You going to Massillon on the 13th for classes? >>>> LOL

Oh, Warren knows me. I've had the good fortune to knock back a couple of cold ones with Mr. Jones before! He's a true gentleman that does a lot for softball in Ohio who has absolutely nothing to worry about me ever wanting his job!

Won't be hitting the state clinic this year. Already went to the National Umpire School last month in Columbus and that keeps me eligible for national tournament play. Up here in the central district we have to go to separate meetings for high school baseball and high school softball, plus separate meetings for ASA softball. I've about had my fill of meetings and clinics this year and just wish the season would get started!
 
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I'm taking my group up so they can do the Hall of Fame 16u and 14u events in September.. if not they can't do it.. being a state event.

Hope you want to come down for it. Haven't seen you since the Uniform Blowout.
 
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Is it still beating a dead horse if someone wants clarification on a point that hasn't been addressed here before, or is offering a new solution that's never been proposed?

MISTER ED LIVES! :D
 
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That clarification on a point .. especially that point.... I am sure he will get e-mails and phone calls about....LOL as " Inquiring Minds Want To Know"
 
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Is it still beating a dead horse if someone wants clarification on a point that hasn't been addressed here before, or is offering a new solution that's never been proposed?

MISTER ED LIVES! :D


wbRACEwhip_wideweb__470x318,0.jpg


No that's more like this.
 
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If John Cougar Mellencamp can run for Indiana Senator.. Bretman can run for President !
 
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Bretman, the idea is definitely a good one. But like I stated on the other thread, wouldn't the most simple answer be less teams, higher fees? Then there doesn't need to be any new way to figure out how to deal with it. Simply play the games the way they're supposed to be played. If drop deads and time limits and stalling tactics are so hated by all as it seems, then I'm sure we'd each be willing to kick in $10 more a weekend per player to be done with them. I mean $500 for a tournament sounds so much more than $400, but its nothing when broken down. Then like Spano for example:

They had 20 14u teams. 2 fields. They started at 6 pm on friday evening last game over at 11:10. Then started at 8 am on Saturday last game over at 1:10 am Sunday morning. Then back on Sunday at 8 am with last game over at 6:30 pm. With 20 teams at $375 per team they got $7500 in fees. Games were drop dead revert with 1:10 drop dead. 10 minutes between games. They also made money of course from admission fees and concession stand from the 20 teams. Format was 3 pool games and then single elim.

But if they would've only allowed 16 teams, they would've needed about $470 a team to get the $7500 in entry fees. Thats about $8.50 a player more for the entire weekend if you have an 11 player roster. So no big deal there, you'd think. And maybe the 10 less games needed would mean the umpire fees are less so maybe that offsets the admission fees and concession take at least somewhat. Now with 4 less teams you need 6 less pool games(basically in this case, you'd be eliminating one pool) and 4 less games in elimination play. So you'd be saving a little over 13 hours of time by not having to have those games. With 16 teams and this format, you'd have a total of 39 games to play. 24 for pool play and then 15 elimination play. You take that 13 hours worth of time and divide it into the 39 games and 20 minutes could've been added on to each game thus making it 1:30 per game. Still not perfect, but alot better than 1:10. And it would be more of course if say 3 fields or 4 fields were used, which is usally the case when there are 16-20 teams. Just by lowering how many teams get in would resolve the issue easily with 3 or 4 fields for a 16 team tournament. Once you hit 1:40 or an 1:50, thats usually enough to get the 7 innings in. And for every extra inning game that may throw the schedule off a little theres a run rule game that saved you time.

How hard is this? Just seems like everyone wants to find a new way to deal with time limits/drop dead when it seems so obvious the focus should be to eliminate them. Yes, it means 4 teams miss out on getting into the tournament, but most good tournaments turn away teams anyways. Sooner or later they can't take all applicants. Teams will all find a place to play on any given weekend.
 
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Bretman, the idea is definitely a good one. But like I stated on the other thread, wouldn't the most simple answer be less teams, higher fees? Then there doesn't need to be any new way to figure out how to deal with it. Simply play the games the way they're supposed to be played. If drop deads and time limits and stalling tactics are so hated by all as it seems, then I'm sure we'd each be willing to kick in $10 more a weekend per player to be done with them. I mean $500 for a tournament sounds so much more than $400, but its nothing when broken down. Then like Spano for example:

They had 20 14u teams. 2 fields. They started at 6 pm on friday evening last game over at 11:10. Then started at 8 am on Saturday last game over at 1:10 am Sunday morning. Then back on Sunday at 8 am with last game over at 6:30 pm. With 20 teams at $375 per team they got $7500 in fees. Games were drop dead revert with 1:10 drop dead. 10 minutes between games. They also made money of course from admission fees and concession stand from the 20 teams. Format was 3 pool games and then single elim.

But if they would've only allowed 16 teams, they would've needed about $470 a team to get the $7500 in entry fees. Thats about $8.50 a player more for the entire weekend if you have an 11 player roster. So no big deal there, you'd think. And maybe the 10 less games needed would mean the umpire fees are less so maybe that offsets the admission fees and concession take at least somewhat. Now with 4 less teams you need 6 less pool games(basically in this case, you'd be eliminating one pool) and 4 less games in elimination play. So you'd be saving a little over 13 hours of time by not having to have those games. With 16 teams and this format, you'd have a total of 39 games to play. 24 for pool play and then 15 elimination play. You take that 13 hours worth of time and divide it into the 39 games and 20 minutes could've been added on to each game thus making it 1:30 per game. Still not perfect, but alot better than 1:10. And it would be more of course if say 3 fields or 4 fields were used, which is usally the case when there are 16-20 teams. Just by lowering how many teams get in would resolve the issue easily with 3 or 4 fields for a 16 team tournament. Once you hit 1:40 or an 1:50, thats usually enough to get the 7 innings in. And for every extra inning game that may throw the schedule off a little theres a run rule game that saved you time.

How hard is this? Just seems like everyone wants to find a new way to deal with time limits/drop dead when it seems so obvious the focus should be to eliminate them. Yes, it means 4 teams miss out on getting into the tournament, but most good tournaments turn away teams anyways. Sooner or later they can't take all applicants. Teams will all find a place to play on any given weekend.

Sometimes the obvious is simply BRILLIANT! AGREE 100%.
 
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Let's look at this another way too. Would you rather have 1:10 drop-dead at Spano or be sitting home all weekend because they only had room for 16 teams and your team didn't get in? The idea of all this is to get the girls playing as much as possible.

I think if the effect of stalling is negated, that goes along way to making things much better. JMHO
 
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Of course, I'm trying to come up with something that is practical IF time limits must be used. That is the real world. It would be nice if time limits were done away with altogether. But that is probably a dream world.

You can't dispute the math of taking fewer teams and charging them more money. Even that, plus lengthening the time limit accordingly, doesn't address the problem of stalling. Any format that can give a team an incentive to stall can have stalling problems.

The proposed format eliminates any incentive to stall. If you're forced to use time limits, that single huge problem with them goes away.

If I get to pick and choose any solution I want to, I'd pick playing full seven inning games. I don't realistically see that becoming the norm anytime soon.
 
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Remember people want the full experience.
If you play no time limits a full 7 innings, you would need to allow for a 2hr game. This would only allow you to schedule 4 teams per field. As you need to play 6 games at 2hrs each, equal 12hr day. So then tournaments could become a one age group tournament. But people like to be there as an organization sometimes and not just as individual teams. I think to keep complaining about this issue will result if a few things people will dislike even more.

#1 Playing games starting on Friday at 8:00 am, we are already starting to see to many tournaments start way to early on friday.

#2 and the one I fear the most, a BASEBALL format tournament, 3 pool games and only the winner of that pool moves on to bracket play. With my son I could not stand going to his baseball tournaments if they lost the first game, because the teams chance of having any importance the rest of the tournament was almost none...It has always been nice in fastpitch tournaments to know no matter how you played or finished in pool play you still have a chance to win it on Sunday.

Please remember most tournaments do not have the option of using 30 fields for the tournament like they do down in Columbus.
 
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