Umpire Question?

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I am not a student of the rules of the game. But I saw a call where a girl was called out at the plate for being out of the baseline. She made a backdoor slide touching that plate on the slide with her hand. She had to slide around the catcher since the catcher was in position to receive the throw. I thought if you could make contact with the base you would still be in the baseline.

Any insight?

Thanks

 

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From your description, this sounds like a bad call.

The rule states that a runner may not leave her basepath by more than three feet to avoid a fielder who has posession of the ball and is attempting a tag.

The runner establishes her own basepath, and the basepath is defined differently than the baseline.

To illustrate the difference:

The baseline is the straight line that connects one base to the next.

The runner's basepath is whichever path she decides to take when advancing or retreating on the bases.

Picture a runner who started on second and is attempting to score on a hit to the outfield. She is not required to run in a perfectly straight line to third, then make a 90-degree turn before heading straight for home. That would be an example of a runner following the "baseline".

You can see that runners leave the "baseline" all the time. That is perfectly legal. The runner can legally make a wide, arcing turn to round third. That is the runners "basepath".

When a fielder with the ball is attempting a tag, the runner's basepath is then defined as a straight line from the runner, wherever she might be, directly to the base she is trying for.

Go three feet to either side of that line to avoid the tag and you are out. And, the runner's entire body must be three feet off that line.

Relating this to your play:

You didn't specify if the catcher actually had the ball before the runner slid. If the catcher didn't, then the runner could not possibly be called out for leaving her basepath. No ball equals no tag attempt equals no infraction.

If the catcher did have the ball before the runner slid, the fact that the runner was able to reach the plate demonstrates that her ENTIRE body was not outside of the three-foot allowance.

Just going by your description, I can't picture any way for the runner to be called out for leaving her basepath to avoid a tag.

 

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Bretman

Thank you for the very detailed explanation.

 

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I had a situation like this yesterday and the runner went so far out of the baseline that she could not reach the plateand had to come back to touch the plate but I had already called her out for leaving the basepath. And the catcher did have the ball in glove waiting for her.

 

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Okay softballump (and Bret), not to be a pest, however ..... based on what you just said, how do you deal with a situation where there is a close play at home and the runner sails by the plate and the catcher with the ball misses the plate? If she slides, tumbles, runs more than 5-10 feet or so and then retreats to touch the plate? This happens from time to time and it seems pretty liberal with range of playing area around the plate in this type of case. Maybe it's the same with overslides at the bases too, just don't see that as much I guess? Is this just an "overslide" as opposed to a "baseline/basepath" issue? Is it the same on all bases as it is at home plate?

For instance, I saw one at Nationals in Cols this past weekend where the catcher received the ball, blocked the plate, and the runner tumbled over her and reached down as she sailed by over the top attempting to touch the plate (she barely missed it), and the catcher was not able to turn with the ball in time to apply the tag. The runner got up and headed towards the dugout, the catcher got up shook her head and started to throw the ball back to the pitcher when the runner darted back to touch the plate (on encouragement from her coach) - she had not actually entered the dugout. I knew this was happening because I saw the Ump make no call (safe or out) and he was just standing there attentively watching the runner and the catcher - that was my clue that the play was not over in his mind even though most of the players and fans thought it was dead. The runner did make it back to touch the plate and was promptly called SAFE, even though she got up and moved more than 10 feet or so towards the dugout which deked out the catcher (not intentionally though).

 

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I can't speak for NSA because I don't know the rules of NSA. But, for ASA and High School the runner is assumed to have touched the bag or plate once passed. The runner is assumed safe until an appeal is made prior to the next play or pitch. The runner has until they reach the dugout area to return to touch the bag or plate. Again I don't know about NSA but the two i do know we would not wait on the play it would just be a safe call and go on with the game unless it is appealed.

 

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Thanks Blue!

 

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P-Dad,

You're not being a pest at all! We love the questions.

Softball Ump has given you a good answer. The ASA umpire manual has specific information to cover the play you describe. The instruction given:

"If a runner misses home plate and the catcher misses the tag, the umpire should hesitate slightly to allow the players to finish the play, either the runner reaching to tag the plate or the catcher reaching to tag the runner. If no tag is made, the umpire should declare the runner SAFE. If a proper appeal is made, then the umpire should call the runner OUT.

There are two reasons why we advocate this procedure. 1) we do NOT want to tip either team that the play may not be over, and; 2) a runner is assumed SAFE until put out. If a proper appeal is NOT made, the runner is safe."

For the umpire to give no signal on this play is not the proper procedure. After the slight hesitation, the safe signal and call should be made. If NSA is teaching something different than ASA (I don't think they do), one of the NSA guys would have to check in a let us know.

The reason this isn't a "leaving the basepath" issue is that the runner walking toward the dugout is not in the act of avoiding a tag attempt by the catcher. The runner can come back and touch the plate anytime before she enters the dugout, or dead ball territory, or before the next pitch.

But there is the potential for this to become a basepath violation, and I have actually seen this happen before.

Suppose we have a sliding runner who just misses the plate and a catcher who misses the tag. The runner gets up and begins walking toward the dugout opening. The coaches yell for her to go back and touch the plate. The catcher is standing near home plate, between the plate and the runner.

If the runner heads back to the plate and the catcher is attempting a tag, now the runner has established a basepath that is a straight line from her position directly to the plate.

If she deviates more than three feet from that newly established basepath, while trying to avoid a tag from the catcher, she would be out for the basepath violation.

 

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bretman,

Let me start off by saying I am not questioning anything you have said because I agree with you and your interpretation 100%. What I disagree with is the rule on a force play at first (ball hit to SS she throws to first). One rule says the batter runner is out if the defense has the ball and touches first base before the runner does. But yet the rules also state as above you are to assume a passing runner touches the base until an appeal is made. WHY??????

 

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I'd love to have some logical, enlightening answer as to "WHY" the rule is written that way.

The best I can give you is "dems da rules!".

It is simply the convention that has evolved in the 150-some odd years since the rules of baseball and softball were first codified.

I've often wondered "WHY" we don't allow four outs per inning, play 12 innings per game or a home run shouldn't be worth two points!

The convention that has evolved is that a runner passing a base is assumed to have touched it until properly appealed by the defense.

If I had to guess, the reasoning behind this rule might be that both the offense and the defense have "erred" on this play- the offense by missing the base and the defense by missing the tag, or not tagging the base before the runner got there- so both sides are given an equal chance to correct their error.

But that's the way the rule is written and until it is changed that's the way it will have to be enforced.

 

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If I had to guess, the reasoning behind this rule might be that both the offense and the defense have "erred" on this play- the offense by missing the base and the defense by missing the tag, or not tagging the base before the runner got there- so both sides are given an equal chance to correct their error.

This is why I understand the tag play at home, or any other base, its just the force out situation that doesnt make sense. The first baseman is on the bag and catches the ball. They have not "erred". They did what they were supposed to do. Why should they have to appeal if the umpire saw the runner miss the bag? If the umpire doesnt see the runner miss, he is not going to grant the appeal anyway.

Just trying to get an umpires view. Would you like it better if you just called runners out for missing a base without an appeal?

 

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I don't know if I would like it better or not. Either way is fine by me. This happens so few times that calling it one way or the other would have little material impact on the games.

This year, I have had the "missed first base" play happen only two times in about 75 games. Both times the runner successfully returned to the base and the defense made no appeal.

Some of you might not remember this, but up until about 10 years ago the rules for high school baseball and softball (NFHS) required no appeal by the defense to call a runner out for missing a base. If the umpire saw it, he called it right away.

For whatever reason, the rule gurus decided to change this to the rule we currently have, which is now pretty much the same across all rule sets right up through Major League baseball.

Somewhere, somehow, somebody has decided that to be the most equitable way to handle missed bases.

I can see your problem with the force play at first base. This is just speculation on my part, but I would imagine that this play at first is called that way to keep a uniform interpretation on the rule that says a runner passing a base is assumed to have touched it in effect for all bases.

Under that "assumed to have touched it" principle, the defense has not earned the out because the ball did not arrive before the runner. They still have a chance to get the out on appeal and the runner still has a chance to correct her baserunning mistake.

But you're right. This is an odd play and enforcing the rule as it is written seems to go against the force play rule.

As much as we would like the rule book to be infallable, the truth is that there are many inconsitencies and conflicts when the rules are taken as a whole.

It has been documented that the Official Baseball Rules used in the Major Leagues contains around 150 such inconsistencies and conflicts between rules found in separate sections of the book.

The rules of softball were first formalized by the ASA in the 1930's and many of the rules were taken verbatim from the existing baseball rules at the time.

As a result, softball rules today contain many of the same inconsistencies and conflicts.

 

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Iwould like to agree with bretman, I never consider anyone a pest that wants to ask the correct interpretation of a rule. I will be happy to discuss rules with any one at any time. It makes it so much more fun when we are all on the same page. I would like players, coaches and parents to know why I made a call.

 

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I have another question. When an illegal pitch is called, is it a dead ball? It is then a ball for the batter and the runners advance one base. I thought I heard one time that it is alive and the offense could take the result of the pitch. Depending on the answer I have a followup question.

Thanks

 

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No, an illegal pitch is not automatically a dead ball.

The batter may hit a pitch that has been declared "illegal". If the batter puts the ball in play and safely reaches first base, and all other runners advance at least one base, the illegal pitch is nullified and all action as a result of the batted ball stands. No option is offered.

Otherwise, the team manager has the option to take the result of the play or enforce the illegal pitch penalty. The penalty is to award a ball to the batter and advance any runners one base.

 

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An illegal pitch is considered a "delayed dead ball", whereas the plate umpire should extend the left arm horizontally away from the body for a couple of seconds. Then when play is over, the results are exactly what bretman stated. I don't see this signal done by the umps very often.

 

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Okay, both answers were what I thought. Now the followup which has already been partly answered. It seems when I have seen it called, usually actually by the field ump as they can see the the foot leaving the ground/rubber better, the ump yells out illlegal pitch immediately and thus everyone is startled and stops (the pitch is obviously still delivered but the batter doesn't swing and all of the fielders and runners stop their movement).

From the replies, if the ump does this they are jumping the gun and need to wait until the play is over. Besides the hitter hitting the ball, a runner might be stealing or the catcher trying to pick somebody off.

Maybe the ump has seen that nothing is going on when I have seen it called, but it sure has seemed quick.

 

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I would take a slightly different approach when coaching my players.

Your players should be taught in advance that when they hear "illegal pitch" called they need to NOT freeze in their tracks. If they're being taught that up front, then the offense is presented with an advantageous situation.

The batter has essentially a free swing. Let 'er rip! If you connect, good things can happen. If you miss, so what. The worst you can get is a ball added to your count.

The runners on base are free to try for the next base. If they are caught stealing, no harm. They will be awarded the next base anyway. If the defense tries to catch the stealing runner, you have the chance to force an error and possibly advance additional bases.

An illegal pitch call can be a tremendous opportunity for the offense. And rightfully so. After all, the defense has committed an illegal act.

On the flip side, a savy catcher might hold off from making a tough throw to nail a stealing runner on this play. Why make a tricky throw and risk the error when the runner is going to be awarded the advanced base anyway?

For these reasons it is in the best interest of all participants to have the illegal pitch called as early and as clearly as possible. It gives them the chance to react accordingly.

If the players are stopping on this call, I would have to wonder why their coach never taught them the correct way to react to an illegal pitch.

 

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The illegal pitch call should not be made loudly. ?When either umpire sees an illegal pitch they should immediately give the delayed dead ball signal and say illegal pitch so the nearest players can hear not the whole field. ?It would be distracting even if you are taught that way to all of a sudden hear someone yell something out. ?If an umpire yells something out in the middle of the play it is going to be to confusing to keep playing and wait to hear what they are saying.

 

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Ironically, after posting my question last week, our team had an illegal pitch situation this past weekend. We were batting and I think the pitcher did not wipe her fingers after going to her mouth. Anyway the ump called illegal pitch after she stepped on the rubber but well before she started her delivery. Everyone on (both teams) were a little confused on what to do. (Note these were 12u teams and not something we have really encountered before). Pitcher went ahead and pitched, batter didn't swing (it was out of the strike zone). Obviously we got the ball and I don't remember if anyone was even on base.

After the play, it was discussed and brought up the points Bretman stated. One of the finer points of the rules we now know firsthand for if it happens again.

I guess a followup to this, with the umpire calling this so early, can the pitcher step back off the rubber and "correct" this? Start her prep over and be sure she wipes her hand? Something for me to know as my DD is a pitcher.