Bretman Help

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Ok, here we go...........

Batter (who is the DH) takes ball four and runs to first base. Then is subbed out with a faster runner. Inning is ended with next batter grounding out.
Two innings later DH comes up to hit......coach tries to call time(did not re-enter her into the game) but first pitch is delivered for a ball. Batter does not swing.

Visiting coach comes out as our coach is re-entering her, but one pitch has already be thrown.

After a very LONG meeting with umps and coaches, batter(DH) is called out.

Is this the correct call? Why or why not?

Had no bearing on the outcome of the game.

 

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I am no Bretman but my understanding is that there is no issue until the batter completes her at bat, so I think incorrect call.

 

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Let's see if I can get the Bretman stamp of approval.

Correct call is to have batter that should have been up take over the at bat (runner for DH in earlier inning) and assume the count of the DH at which point you could reenter the DH (legally) and let her finish her at bat. Substitution error is only penalized with an out at the completion of the at bat (so if DH got single on first pitch and then DC protest then DH is out and any baserunners return to where they were prior to DH's at bat.

 

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Once they have seen a pitch, then the re-enter without reporting is illegal and batter is out.

 

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I think we're confusing the re-entry rule with the batting out of order rule.

 

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So we have 3 against and 1 for the batter being out. I side with the 3 against. 4-1. Bretman????

 

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The right answer is dependent on which santioning body's rules you're using. They do have different penalties for an unreported substitution.

Neither high school or ASA use a DH (designated hitter). Are you thinking of a DP (designated player)?

I also assume that the player who re-entered did so in her original spot in the batting order and that she did in fact have re-entry rights at that point. Correct?

 

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DP is correct and she did enter the box in her original spot in the batting order.

 

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This is a bit more interesting than the one we had several games ago, which was handled incorrectly.

In our case, a fielder had a pinch runner inserted after their at-bat. The fielder returned and played defense for two innings without reporting back into the game. After the first pitch of their next at bat, the opposing coach challenged her and she was called out.

The fact was that she had already returned to the game (she had played defense) and the only penalty should have been a warning for an unreported player. She was completely legal to bat - bad call on the umpire.

In the case of the DP, I am assuming that they did not field before their next at bat.

However, my understanding the only way that an out should automatically be assessed is if she completed her at bat and reached safely, then was challenged by the coach. Sending the wrong player to the plate is a correctable error, and the pinch runner could have replaced her (and taken her count) or maybe she could have even been re-inserted at that time.

 

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I think we're confusing the re-entry rule with the batting out of order rule.

That was my thought, if simply batting out of order this was wrong call, but since it was re-entry issue.... well, not sure :lmao:

 

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Here is the high school rule...

This is a an unreported substitution.

If an unreported sub is the batter, the sub is considered to be "in the game" as soon as she steps into the batter's box and the ball is live.

Once brought to the umpire's attention, then the substitution is recorded and there is no further penalty.

On a first violation, a team warning is issued to the coach for failing to report a sub. On a subsequent violation by that same team, the unreported sub and the head coach are restricted to the bench.

Either way, an out should not have been called in this situation. Under high school rules, an unreported sub is NEVER called out.

 

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Bretman:

Is the ASA rule the same?

Thanks very much.
carol

 

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Not exactly...but in the case of the first post the end result would be the same.

For ASA, an unreported sub as a batter CAN be called out- but only if she actually completes her at-bat, then is appealed before the next pitch.

Also, ASA does not have the "team warning" or a bench restriction in their rules.

If this was an ASA game, the correct call would have been to simply note the change on the line-up and continue the game.

 

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Thanks:

Just wanted to make sure that if we wait long enough in ASA ball, the unreported substitution by an opposing team could in fact result in an out.

 

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It was annoying that the player is standing there the longest time waiting, the two umps are discussing, and then say she's fine, motion to play ball, and then the opposing coach starts up again at the one ump, the umps go in private conversation again, umps continue to state she can bat, then the opposing coach complained again, and umps went again to converse and then they called her out....all I can say is....had the player been allowed to continue and hit well during that time, we might have seen one very upset coach...

 

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I always hate to hear when the umpires get it right, then change their call and get it wrong due to some baseless argument by one of the coaches.

Unless somehow presented with some sort of irrefutable new evidence...stick with your first call! What changed between their first huddle and their third. Nothing! This just makes it look like the umpires don't know what they're doing and can be influenced by which coach complains the loudest.

 

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Either way, an out should not have been called in this situation. Under high school rules, an unreported sub is NEVER called out.[/QUOTE]



Bretman, would an unreported re-entry be considered the same as an unreported sub?

 

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I always hate to hear when the umpires get it right, then change their call and get it wrong due to some baseless argument by one of the coaches.

Unless somehow presented with some sort of irrefutable new evidence...stick with your first call! What changed between their first huddle and their third. Nothing! This just makes it look like the umpires don't know what they're doing and can be influenced by which coach complains the loudest.

Loud? You don't know the half of it. He complained on 6 or 7 calls. This coach was one of the most obnoxious, BUSH league coaches I have ever seen. Just embarassing it had to be for his girls.

 

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Bretman, would an unreported re-entry be considered the same as an unreported sub?

They're both the same thing- a substitution.

If someone is coming into the game, then someone must be coming out! That is a substitution.

 

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Is there any penality in High school or other sanctioning bodies for the unreported defensive substitution? Or is it simply correct it when noticed like above. I guess I'm asking about a fielder making a play, then realizing she has not been reported in the game. Does this change the result of the play (like after completing the at bat results, the the appeal, changes the results under the ASA rule)?