deffinition of an ERROR

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had some controversy w/ a coach and a book keeper on this...
what is your deffinition of an error?
any exceptions?

 

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I find that what I call "on by error" does not always agree with what the scorekeeper feels is an error....
I found this: ?

According to ATEC

ERRORS
10.13 An error shall be charged for each misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) which prolongs the time at bat of a batter or which prolongs the life of a runner, or which permits a runner to advance one or more bases.
NOTE (1) Slow handling of the ball which does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error.
NOTE (2) It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a pop fly falls untouched and in the scorer's judgment the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, an error shall be charged.
NOTE (3) Mental mistakes or misjudgments are not to be scored as errors unless specifically covered in the rules.
(a) An error shall be charged against any fielder when he muffs a foul fly, to prolong the time at bat of a batter whether the batter subsequently reaches first base or is put out.
(b) An error shall be charged against any fielder when he catches a thrown ball or a ground ball in time to put out the batter runner and fails to tag first base or the batter runner.
(c) An error shall be charged against any fielder when he catches a thrown ball or a ground ball in time to put out any runner on a force play and fails to tag the base or the runner.
(d) (1) An error shall be charged against any fielder whose wild throw permits a runner to reach a base safely, when in the scorer's judgment a good throw would have put out the runner.
EXCEPTION: No error shall be charged under this section if the wild throw is made attempting to prevent a stolen base.
(2) An error shall be charged against any fielder whose wild throw in attempting to prevent a runner's advance permits that runner or any other runner to advance one or more bases beyond the base he would have reached had the throw not been wild.
(3) An error shall be charged against any fielder whose throw takes an unnatural bounce, or touches a base or the pitcher's plate, or touches a runner, a fielder or an umpire, thereby permitting any runner to advance.
NOTE: Apply this rule even when it appears to be an injustice to a fielder whose throw was accurate. Every base advanced by a runner must be accounted for.
(4) Charge only one error on any wild throw, regardless of the number of bases advanced by one or more runners.
(e) An error shall be charged against any fielder whose failure to stop, or try to stop, an accurately thrown ball permits a runner to advance, providing there was occasion for the throw. If such throw be made to second base, the scorer shall determine whether it was the duty of the second baseman or the shortstop to stop the ball, and an error shall be charged to the negligent player.
NOTE: If in the scorer's judgment there was no occasion for the throw, an error shall be charged to the fielder who threw the ball.
(f) When an umpire awards the batter or any runner or runners one or more bases because of interference or obstruction, charge the fielder who committed the interference or obstruction with one error, no matter how many bases the batter, or runner or runners, may be advanced.
NOTE: Do not charge an error if obstruction does not change the play in the opinion of the scorer.
10.14 No error shall be charged in the following cases:
(a) No error shall be charged against the catcher when after receiving the pitch, he makes a wild throw attempting to prevent a stolen base, unless the wild throw permits the stealing runner to advance one or more extra bases, or permits any other runner to advance one or more bases.
(b) No error shall be charged against any fielder who makes a wild throw if in the scorer's judgment the runner would not have been put out with ordinary effort by a good throw, unless such wild throw permits any runner to advance beyond the base he would have reached had the throw not been wild.
(c) No error shall be charged against any fielder when he makes a wild throw in attempting to complete a double play or triple play, unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance beyond the base he would have reached had the throw not been wild.
NOTE: When a fielder muffs a thrown ball which, if held, would have completed a double play or triple play, charge an error to the fielder who drops the ball and credit an assist to the fielder who made the throw.
(d) No error shall be charged against any fielder when, after fumbling a ground ball or dropping a fly ball, a line drive or a thrown ball, he recovers the ball in time to force out a runner at any base.
(e) No error shall be charged against any fielder who permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out, if in the scorer's judgment the fielder deliberately refuses the catch in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch.
(f) Because the pitcher and catcher handle the ball much more than other fielders, certain misplays on pitched balls are defined in Rule 10.15 as wild pitches and passed balls. No error shall be charged when a wild pitch or passed ball is scored.
(1) No error shall be charged when the batter is awarded first base on four called balls or because he was touched by a pitched ball, or when he reaches first base as the result of a wild pitch or passed ball.
(i) When the third strike is a wild pitch, permitting the batter to reach first base, score a strikeout and a wild pitch.
(ii) When the third strike is a passed ball, permitting the batter to reach first base, score a strikeout and a passed ball.

 

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Sorry - would not all fit on one post.

Continued:

(2) No error shall be charged when a runner or runners advance as the result of a passed ball, a wild pitch or a balk.
(i) When the fourth called ball is a wild pitch or a passed ball, and as a result
(a) the batter runner advances to a base beyond first base;
(b) any runner forced to advance by the base on balls advances more than one base, or
(c) any runner, not forced to advance, advances one or more bases, score the base on balls, and also the wild pitch or passed ball, as the case may be;
(ii) When the catcher recovers the ball after a wild pitch or passed ball on the third strike, and throws out the batter runner at first base, or tags out the batter runner, but another runner or runners advance, score the strikeout, the putout and assists, if any, and credit the advance of the other runner or runners as having been made on the play.
WILD PITCHES - PASSED BALLS
10.15 (a) A wild pitch shall be charged when a legally delivered ball is so high, or so wide, or so low that the catcher does not stop and control the ball by ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance.
(1) A wild pitch shall be charged when a legally delivered ball touches the ground before reaching home plate and is not handled by the catcher, permitting a runner or runners to advance.
(b) A catcher shall be charged with a passed ball when he fails to hold or to control a legally pitched ball which should have been held or controlled with ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance.

 

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With above stated guidelines, there is still lots of objectivity. ?Some cut and dry, some gray area. ?On the gray areas, I always poll the coaching staff next to me. ?Majority rules.

There is one exception, and it is similar to what us husbands already know.

 

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I keep the book for our team, and the rule for me is, should or could the play have been made with routine effort? If an outfielder is in a full sprint and has a ball go off her glove, that is not routine effort. If they lose it in the sun and it lands in front of them, it's a hit. I was aware of charging an error when a foul ball is dropped, even if the batter eventually gets out and noone advanced during the at bat because you "extend the life of the batter". Unfortunately it made a parent mad to have her daughter charged with an error. When in doubt in my mind, when stats are being called in, I tried to stay in touch with the other team's scorekeeper, and go by the old "home team is official book" to avoid controversy.

 

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i have a question on the passed ball or wild pitch - i see the rule says no error shall be charged on an advanced base but does that include the score of a run is the runner is on 3rd or only if a runner advanced to 2nd and 3rd - also - 3 of 6 of my DD's errors (according to the coach) are based on wild pitch advances on the bases, bu not scored runs - so would those 3 errors be incorrect in her standings?

 

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Megamom ... neither a wild pitch (pitcher's "fault&quot nor a passed ball (catcher's "fault&quot are recorded as an error. Catchers usually have high fielding percentages because they get putouts on all strikeouts they hang onto, and only get errors on dropped pop-ups, bad throws to bases or back to the pitcher (when runners advance), and potentially on dropped balls at the plate where the runner should have been out. So yes, your DD's fielding pct. should have been a lot better.

 

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What about a play deep in the hole and the player does a "Jeter" a backhanded grab and a throw from behind the third baseman and the first baseman doesn't scoop it. To me this is not a normal play. What do you think? Any error?

 

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Without seeing it can't be 100% sure but by your description it was "extraordinary effort" = hit.

 

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Based on your description, hit.

 

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I have always been told that no error is given on a stolen base attempt 1) for the catcher, even if the ball is thrown wild or 2) for the ss, even if the ball is thrown close and she doesn't get there in time. It is just registered as a stolen base.

I know of situations this year where the ball was thrown to the opposite side of the base (2nd) and the ss was given an error because she didn't get to the ball and where the ball was thrown in the dirt and the ss dropped the ball/didn't make the catch. The ss was given errors on both these types of plays. Based on what I have always been told, I would give no error to either player and would just record stolen bases. What is the correct call?

 

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I asked for a bit of help,(2 other coaches in full view), on the play Heat is referring to. SS made a great effort getting to the ball, the SS set her feet before the throw, the throw one hopped the 1st baseman in plenty of time to get the runner. The ball popped out of 1st baseman's glove. I asked for help, both coaches said error on the throw because the ball hit the dirt before the attempted catch. I think if the SS hadn't set her feet before thw throw, or had been throwing off balance, we would have scored it a hit. Maybe too tough a call?,

 

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I think you answered your question, "Great effort to get to the ball" Great effort doesn't sound like a normal play. Therefore no error. I think this was a kill two birds with one stone.

 

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I think you answered your question, "Great effort to get to the ball" ?Great effort doesn't sound like a normal play. ?Therefore no error. ?I think this was a kill two birds with one stone. ?

Great effort fielding the ball does not give the fielder a free pass on the throw. I would score as an error.

 

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according to ATEC - if the play is not able to be made with "ORDINARY EFFORT" then it is a HIT. ?I guess that means that it is the scorekeepers judgement on whether "ordinary effort" could have made the play or not. ?If a SS regularly makes Great Plays then sometimes they get an error charged when they cannot make that great play because it gets "assumed" that a great play consititutes ordinary effort for that player. ?I take "ordinary effort" to mean any fielder that does not make great plays regularly - could they have made that play? ?YES = Error, ?NO = Hit Some players make plays look easy that really are not!

 

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Remember, there are two parts to the play by the shortstop being described: the fielding of the ground ball, and the throw. That's why there are throwing errors, and fielding errors, where a player" boots" a ball. If the SS on the play described had not fielded the ball on this play, no error would have been given. However, the fact remains that the player had control of the ball, set the feet, and made a bad throw, where a throw could have been made with "ordinary effort" to get the runner out. Part 1 of the play ends in my mind when the feet were set. Thus, throwing error on the SS would be my ruling because the throw was in the dirt. Because it was in the dirt, it was not a "routine effort" play for the first baseman. If the throw was at the knees, or even the ankles, and the first baseman had simply dropped it, it would have been scored an error by the first baseman in my book.

 

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This is another area where I tend to get confused...Under ATEC it says takes an "unatural bounce". If the throw goes into the dirt and then goes directly to 1st base - is that an unatural bounce? ATEC says:

3) An error shall be charged against any fielder whose throw takes an unnatural bounce, or touches a base or the pitcher's plate, or touches a runner, a fielder or an umpire, thereby permitting any runner to advance.

so never had been sure if the throw stays on the straight and narrow - but hits the ground and bounces in the same direction - is that a throwing error or an error on the 1st baseman?

 

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Bubba and Hegbb are correct. One of the reasons Ozzie Smith used to have more errors than a lot of ordinary shortstops is that he had such great range that he would get to more balls than the others. That was a blessing when he would make a fabulous leaping throw on target from the hole or a great barehanded pickup while charging at full speed--- but it was a curse (for his stats) when he would make a wild throw after the great play with his glove. It would also be a curse for the batter because against an ordinary shortstop the ball would have been a hit. Instead, it was either an out or an error.

The bottom line is that once the fielder has picked up the ball, no matter how extraordinary the effort was to do so, the throw is a seperate part of the play and must be made accurately or an error will be charged. If a third baseman dives full out to her left and spears a one-hopper hit like a bullet, then scrambles to her feet and throws the ball so that it reaches first base in time to get the runner out-- but the ball is in the dirt and is not caught by the firstbaseman--- then it's an E-5. The great play is rewarded with an error and the batter is robbed of a hit. But the pitcher, at least, will not be charged with an earned run if the runner eventually scores.

 

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If it was our High School, the answer is an easy one. The word error is not in the coaches vocabulary, thus does not mark them down! ;D