Initiating the Bretman signal

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My Dear Bretman,

Can you please give any clarity to these situations?

1. Lefty slapper involved in a close play at first. Batter called out on what looked like a safe play for 3rd out. As I am crossing field to talk with ump, my runner hustles off field to go play defense. When I get to ump, he immediately tells me I have no basis for any questioning or appeal since batter has already left field of play. So my question is....does player have to remain on the field of play to maintain ability to appeal a call?

2. Runner on 2nd. Ball is batted up the middle, right over 2nd base. Runner and ss colide and umpire extends arm with fist to signal obstruction (ss had no reasonable play on ball). I know runner is safe at 3rd but what is ruling if I send her home and she is thrown out on a close play? How does obstruction come into play?

TIA Bretman!!!!!

 

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I'm not sure about #1, but I think that the umpire can use their discretion to correct any play. It would be reasonable for a player to return to the dugout after being called out, and therefore should be acceptable to place the runner back on the base after a call was overturned on an appeal.

For #2 the runner is only protected to the base that the umpire feels she would have made it to had there been no obstruction. If you overrun the protection you do so at the risk of being put out.

 

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I'm not sure about #1, but I think that the umpire can use their discretion to correct any play. It would be reasonable for a player to return to the dugout after being called out, and therefore should be acceptable to place the runner back on the base after a call was overturned on an appeal.

For #2 the runner is only protected to the base that the umpire feels she would have made it to had there been no obstruction. If you overrun the protection you do so at the risk of being put out.

Bingo on all accounts, Cshilt !!

 

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While Bretman dons his cape and goggles, I will take a stab at Mardee's questions.

A batter leaving a field of play would automatically be out - even if they were safe at the base. In the case of a call you want to discuss - having your player stay on the base until you get a "final answer" is the correct procedure. However, I would say that the umpire getting rid of the argument by pointing out that the player had left the field of play avoids the real issue - was it a poor call.

In the obstruction call, the first point is that no base is granted unless the player attempts to get to the base. I am assuming the base runner advanced to third safely. Third base would definitely have been granted on the obstruction (say if the runner was knocked flat, then was thrown out at third).

If you had sent the runner home, the umpire would have to make a determination on if the runner would have reached home safely if the obstruction had not happened. In essence, how close was the play, and how much did the obstruction delay the runner?

If the play wasn't close, and the runner was only delayed for a moment, then home would not be awarded.

I remember a play where a first baseman obstructed a runner rounding first on a deep hit ball. The runner was thrown out at the plate in a very close play. The umpire signaled the out, then awarded home based on the obstruction, believing that the delay caused at first was enough to have allowed the runner to be safe at home.

 

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Leaving the field of play has nothing to do with it. She was called out and did the proper thing and ran to her dugout which is expected by any player.

In USSSA for instance, in the rule book under Rule 10 (umpires).. we call it the "GOD RULE". I can do whatever is necessary to make the game as fairest as possible. Rule 10 gives me that option.

As for obstruction, an umpire should drop their arm down AFTER the runner reached the next base if he felt she got to safely and deserved that base.

As for the umpire call for the girls leaving the field and no appeal can be had after that point.. is DEFINATELY a "cover up" by an umpire making his own rules.

As for an appeal on whether she was out or safe... I have no idea where you think you might be appealing about. Was you going to "appeal" and close safe or out call to the plate umpire.. as to me.. the plate umpire only job in a play at first base is to watch for a pulled foot or a bobbled or dropped ball.

Not safe or out based on the closeness of the play at first.

The base umpire has his job and as a plate umpire.. I have mine in a play at first. Safe or out based on the closeness of the play... is not a plate umpires job.

 

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Without looking at the rule book, let me take a stab...

In the first instance, it doesn't matter that the runner left the field of play. Umpire called out, ball is dead, the umpire is simply wrong here. He might have been thinking of an appeal play on defense and the defense leaves the field.

On the obstruction, it's my recollection that the runner is protected to the next base when obstruction is called. It is to be called immediately, which was done, but doesn't protect the runner going home. I believe if you send her home and she is out, the umpire then has to determine whether she would have made home without the obstruction. If it's a close play, one would assume she would have made it home. The key point is that she is protected to third in almost all circumstances, but not to home.

 

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#1) What this umpire told you was wrong.

If the runner left the base or the field because the umpire called her out, you could still ask him to check with his partner for help (notice I was careful not to say "appeal" the call, because "appeal plays" have a very specific definition in the rule books- and this isn't one of them).

If you were just asking for help because it was a close play and you didn't like the outcome, I would not fault the umpire for sticking with his call. If there was some valid reason why the base umpire might have missed it- like his view was blocked by another player, he was grossly out of position, there was a loss of ball control on the tag that he missed, there was a sweep tag or pulled foot- then you could ask and he should check with his partner. But if none of that applied and this was a routine tag play, then it is simply a case of one umpire's judgment of what he saw and I wouldn't expect him to ask for help from his partner.

Let's say one of those exceptions applied, for instance a pulled foot on the tag at first base. If the base umpire called the runner out, it wouldn't matter if she then left the base or the field of play or not. You could still ask for help and he could still check with his partner. His partner could still tell him he had a pulled foot, he could still reverse his own call and the runner could still be placed back on first base.

There's nothing in the rules to prevent that. In fact, there are guidelines in the "Umpire" section of the rule book that says they can do that! If an umpire's delayed or reversed call puts either team in jeopardy (and this one would, since the player left the field on the umpire's out call) then the umpires have the power to place the affected runner back on base.

It sounds like he was confusing another rule, the one that says if a player who was called SAFE abandons her effort to run the bases and leaves the field of play she is out. That's just not the case here. The runner left the base because she was called out and if that call was incorrect you don't punish the player for something that was the umpire's fault!

#2) Obstruction doesn't have any set base award- it's wherever the umpire judges the runner would have reached had she not been obstructed. That might be the next base, it might be the next two bases and it might even be the base the runner just passed.

By rule, an obstructed runner cannot be put out between the two bases where she was obstructed. If your runner was between second and third when obstructed, she could not be put out between those two bases. If she is tagged out, the ball becomes immediately dead. The runner is then placed on whichever base the umpire judges she would have safely reached minus the obstruction.

If the runner isn't put out, the play remains live and the runner may advance as she wishes. If the umpire judged that she would have only made it to third, but she runs past third base and is put out at home, then she has effectively "overrun her protection" and that out would stand. On the other hand, if he judged that she would have scored, the ball becomes dead on the tag at home and the runner is awarded home.

 

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And that ladies and gentleman is why He's The man!

 

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Where is our sign? I keep trying to save it, but I also keep killing computers. Couldn't we have a "bretman/gotham button" that we could just hit when we need this precious resource?

 

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I will add a little info, since I was keeping the books and had a clear view of first and the home plate umpire was within 4 feet of me. This actually happened twice in the game. First time it wasn't close ( reason my wife had camera going and you can see the ball in the air, while her foot was on the bag, these new sport setting don't miss much) and second time it was a close play. Runner on second base, so field umpire is well behind short stop( 80 feet away from first) watching runner going to third, but makes the call at first base. I could tell from home plate umpire that he would have called her safe if he would have been allowed to be consulted. #2. Bad break that cost us a run. Runner was on way to third and as she got close to the short stop the short stop turned into her causing her to stop. Nothing runner could do, but with her speed she would have scored. Home plate umpire was very good as the parents wanting the runner to be called out and starting yelling about knocking us down the next time on the field.. He handled that quickly. Plus he explained the rules to the coach about short stop not having a play on the ball. Overall I thought umpires were very good in this tournament.

 

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Runner on second base, so field umpire is well behind short stop (80 feet away from first) watching runner going to third, but makes the call at first base.

As well he should. The initial play at first base is his call and his primary responsibility. He should have been following the ball and gaining angle and distance for the play at first. He shouldn't have been watching the runner going to third if the play wasn't going there. Might be why he kicked it.

Home plate umpire is responsible for the runner touching third and any second throw/play on the lead runner.

Still, nothing there that would preclude the base umpire from going to his partner for help. If he was out of position for the play at first, that is all the more reason why he should have at least been open to the request to check with his partner. His, "It's too late now", explanation just isn't true.

#2. Bad break that cost us a run. Runner was on way to third and as she got close to the short stop the short stop turned into her causing her to stop. Nothing runner could do, but with her speed she would have scored. Home plate umpire was very good as the parents wanting the runner to be called out and starting yelling about knocking us down the next time on the field. He handled that quickly. Plus he explained the rules to the coach about short stop not having a play on the ball. Overall I thought umpires were very good in this tournament.

Sounds like the umpire correctly called and signalled the obstruction, but either: Did not judge that the runner would have scored, or; Possibly may have not understood that the runner could be awarded a base beyond third.

As the coach, I would have probed for an answer as to why she wasn't awarded the advance base. If it was simply his judgment that she wouldn't have scored, you're pretty much stuck with it. If you get an explanation that the runner can't be awarded anything past third, or that the runner must actually try for the next base to have it awarded to her, you might have a protestable misapplication of a playing rule.

Gotta love it when parents in the stands go bonkers over something that has absolutely no basis in the playing rules!

 

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Probably my biggest pet peeve with umpires and rule application is not being awarded enough bases on obstruction. In my strongly held opinion, any doubt whatsoever must go to the non-offending team, which will always be the offense. Therefore, if an umpire thinks there is any reasonable chance (just 1% or better) that the runner could have achieved a particular base (assuming a clean play by the defense), then the runner should be given that base. Otherwise, we are rewarding the offending team and penalizing the non-offending team.

I have found that, usually, umpires just give it a two-second analysis and then award whatever base. Instead, they need to think about where the obstruction occurred, where the defense was playing, where the ball was hit, how hard it was hit, and then picture in their mind where the runner and the ball were at the time of the obstruction.

I actually think the ASA rule should be rewritten to include that the benefit of any doubt in an umpire's mind must go to the non-offending team and that the commentary regarding the addition should state that the spirit of the rule is to give the non-offending team whatever bases it would have received without the obstruction, which should never include a possibility of penalizing that team. The offense should always at least be made "whole" on this call. If the defense thinks an umpire gave one too many bases, then they should teach their players not to obstruct and understand that being in the wrong place at the wrong time never leads to anything good.

 

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Adding on to Joe and maybe asking Bretman for help--runners on 2 and 3, down 3, batter hits ball to right center gap. No fence, ball is smoked, SS cuts across bag and cross bodies runner-(turns out she actually gets a rib contusions and partially tears a knee ligament), before first OF has touched ball yet. She crawls back to 2nd, base umpire makes no signals. Ball comes in, time is called and I go BALLISTIC. He said since she made no effort to advance he did not consider it obstruction. So if the standard is you can actually physically injure the oppostion and incur no penalty.... This team also had the 1B straddle both bags at first, and had the 3B curl behind the runner going back to the bag in foul territory. Good news is this was a non-Ohio team in an out-of state tournament....So was umpire right, and if so does rule need changed. I agree with Joe.

 

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Ok, here is one from a game at Nationals in York, PA.
No outs, runners on first and second.
Batter hits a pop up behind and to the 2B's right side. She runs, dives and makes an ESPN highlights catch. The runners do not tag up and batter runs to second, second base runner to third and runner on third to home. We have an easy triple play.
Anyone care to guess the 'call'?

 

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Adding on to Joe and maybe asking Bretman for help--runners on 2 and 3, down 3, batter hits ball to right center gap. No fence, ball is smoked, SS cuts across bag and cross bodies runner-(turns out she actually gets a rib contusions and partially tears a knee ligament), before first OF has touched ball yet. She crawls back to 2nd, base umpire makes no signals. Ball comes in, time is called and I go BALLISTIC. He said since she made no effort to advance he did not consider it obstruction. So if the standard is you can actually physically injure the oppostion and incur no penalty.... This team also had the 1B straddle both bags at first, and had the 3B curl behind the runner going back to the bag in foul territory. Good news is this was a non-Ohio team in an out-of state tournament....So was umpire right, and if so does rule need changed. I agree with Joe.

I have no idea where some umpires come up with the "she made no effort to advance" nonsense. That isn't in the rules. If that were the rule, we could simply direct our shortstop to bear hug every girl before she reaches second base.

If a team at any higher level did the things that are described in LCTigerdad's post, it won't be long before someone on the defense pays the price.

 

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Ok, here is one from a game at Nationals in York, PA.
No outs, runners on first and second.
Batter hits a pop up behind and to the 2B's right side. She runs, dives and makes an ESPN highlights catch. The runners do not tag up and batter runs to second, second base runner to third and runner on third to home. We have an easy triple play.
Anyone care to guess the 'call'?

I can't imagine anything other than a triple play.

 

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I'm going to have to add "she made no effort to advance" to my list of rule myths.

 

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I can't imagine anything other than a triple play.

Get this, NO OUT...not one out or two, but NONE!! No infield fly rule called. No out from catching the pop up because the umpire did not see it go into her glove before she stepped on second and threw to first to double up the runners.

[MOVE]U N R E A L!!!![/MOVE]

 

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Adding on to Joe and maybe asking Bretman for help--runners on 2 and 3, down 3, batter hits ball to right center gap. No fence, ball is smoked, SS cuts across bag and cross bodies runner-(turns out she actually gets a rib contusions and partially tears a knee ligament), before first OF has touched ball yet. She crawls back to 2nd, base umpire makes no signals. Ball comes in, time is called and I go BALLISTIC. He said since she made no effort to advance he did not consider it obstruction. So if the standard is you can actually physically injure the oppostion and incur no penalty.... This team also had the 1B straddle both bags at first, and had the 3B curl behind the runner going back to the bag in foul territory. Good news is this was a non-Ohio team in an out-of state tournament....So was umpire right, and if so does rule need changed. I agree with Joe.

There's nothing in the rule book that says the runner must actually try to advance to a base before it can be awarded to her on an obstruction call. It's wherever the umpire judges she would have reached minus the obstruction, and you should extending every benefit of the doubt to the runner.

Where do umpires get this? Hard to tell- they aren't getting it from the ASA rule book, umpire manual or any training the organization provides. One possible explanation: This is actually part of the obstruction rule in baseball- not in high school baseball, but in the "Official Baseball Rules" (OBR) that are the basis for Major League baseball, and some amateur codes that are derived from OBR. So, there is some kernel of truth behind this misconception, just not one that applies to the game of softball!

I get what Joe is saying about "rewritting" the rule. But what he's suggesting it be changed to is actually how the rule should already be interpreted and enforced!

 

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Get this, NO OUT...not one out or two, but NONE!! No infield fly rule called. No out from catching the pop up because the umpire did not see it go into her glove before she stepped on second and threw to first to double up the runners.

[MOVE]U N R E A L!!!![/MOVE]

Sounds like you got robbed big time on that one!

I wouldn't expect an Infield Fly to be called here. A catch that requires an "ESPN highlight reel" effort to make does NOT meet the required Infield Fly definition of "ordinary effort". So it can't be an Infield Fly.

On a close play like that, the instant the umpire makes up his mind on the "catch/no catch" he should be loudly and clearly signalling it for the benefit of the players. Either saying, "Catch!", while giving an out signal or, "No catch!", while giving a safe signal goes a long way toward avoiding confusion on a play like this.

What did this umpire do- just stand there?