It's time to quit complaining and to do something about it

[coachjwb]

College players we can debate about ... they're of age and if you want to make an argument that they should have a choice, I can understand that. And education is critically important of players, parents and coaches until if and when there are rules.

But kids are kids ... if there aren't rules, many kids aren't going to do the right thing, and some of their parents aren't either. You can't educate everyone successfully, and some kids are going to succumb to peer pressure, or even parental pressure to not do something because it might cost them a scholarship. I just don't think we should abandon those kids who are kids, and whose parents and/or coaches who are not responsible.

Most everyone seems to agree here that they should be worn ... I just don't buy the argument that kids should be able to make a choice on the subject of safety. I for one hope that the various sanctioning bodies do what they should be doing, and not have the government get involved.

 

[Pacerdad57]

I don't think any of us have ever intended nor wanted government intervention on this. the intervention of the governing sanctioning bodies of the sport yes.
i have stated on here many times the same sentiment noted above by coachjwb, kids do not have the life experience to determine their safety requirements, nor do most 12 to even 16 year old kids understand the repercussions of a serious head injury.
if the parents aren't going to require their kids safety equipment, then the education process simply isn't working with everyone. and why would anyone be even remotely upset that the concussion protocol has to be viewed and followed by coaches?
i would think by now that the seriousness of concussions would be enough that all involved would be happy to do this if it helped even one child from getting put in a situation that can lead to permanent damage.
i trust my 16 year old DD for a lot of things, she drives safely, she wears her belt, but i don't mind a mandated safety mask for her, because i know it too can save her life. whether she would want to wear it or not.
a child this young simply cannot be put into a position to make it their choice, they simply do not understand the possible severity of their actions at this age. why is everyone ok with batting helmets and catcher's gear and so many upset about making a mask mandatory?
i for one am all for it if it keeps even one child out of the o.r.

 

[DanMaz]

i think the best route is to educate first. start with the youngest players and coaches out there. when you have dads starting out coaching for the first time they don't have a clue.... 8yr old kids don't have any clue. not sure about mandating anything and maybe "choice" is the best advise but i think educating is the first thing that has to happen. yes sanction bodies know all about the damages from not wearing masks so taking the fastest route to the situation is to educate the youngest players and newest coaches out there.

 

[Pacerdad57]

If the education route is the one to be taken, then I think that at the least, and here I go again with a mandated rule from the sanctioning bodies, it needs to be a very in depth program that has to be attended by not only coaches and players but also parents. There would need to be a very complete list of types of injuries, possible severity and consequences of said injuries and video viewing (as reprehensible as this may be) across the board. People need to see first hand how severe these injuries can be. And if you want my honest opinion, I don't think even this would work to get everyone on board with safety. Min a perfect world it would, but if it was a perfect world we wouldn't even be having this discussion, so I still see mandated safety equipment for pitchers and corners as our best bet to prevent serious, avoidable injuries.

 

[DanMaz]

If the education route is the one to be taken, then I think that at the least, and here I go again with a mandated rule from the sanctioning bodies, it needs to be a very in depth program that has to be attended by not only coaches and players but also parents. There would need to be a very complete list of types of injuries, possible severity and consequences of said injuries and video viewing (as reprehensible as this may be) across the board. People need to see first hand how severe these injuries can be. And if you want my honest opinion, I don't think even this would work to get everyone on board with safety. Min a perfect world it would, but if it was a perfect world we wouldn't even be having this discussion, so I still see mandated safety equipment for pitchers and corners as our best bet to prevent serious, avoidable injuries.

look at it this way pacer- if you dont educate and just go to the sanction bodies with all your research you have failed to alert players and parents that are not aware of the dangers and ones that are in danger now. tourneys are going on now. How else will these young players and rookie coaches going to know about the real reasons to wear the masks if you don't educate them at the youngest ages?

i was at the mogadore early bird this weekend watching a friends DD play because we were rained out at the breast cancer tourney. I saw coach pitch teams playing ( had to be 7u or 8u)? and that is the starting point! I wish i had some literature or something to pass out to those young players and coaches to start educating them. You can have some older girls 12u 14u etc. come talk to the younger players to show them it is a GOOD thing SMART thing to wear protection and teach them why it is smart. you dont have to show the kids gross pictures of faces blown up - maybe show their parents but getting to the youngest and of course talk to ALL playing this greeat sport and educate more and more. get players involved to talk. Get SIS involved to talk at clinics. i am sure they would love to be part of this. I beleive education is a must and priority -- meanwhile you can still do all the research and such if any want to pursue mandating. who knows... it might just catch on Nationally and other orgs coaches and players might just see the importance of this and jump on board.

or just sit there and do nothing -------

 

[Pacerdad57]

all good points Dan Maz. but i do think education has been being tried by a number of coaches and orgs, but there are still people out there that will not change their mindset towards safety because i believe they still don't understand the possible consequences even though people have tried to educate them. it's like the old saying, " you can't legislate morality". it just cannot be done, and there are some people that feel they are above being educated about safety, it's just the way it is.
i was not necessarily advocating showing a group of 8u kids pictures of faces blasted apart by a softball injury, but there has to be some level of awareness given to them. we need to find that way. we're in the infancy of this group trying to accomplish something that we feel is very important. do we have all of the answers?? by no means are we that gifted, but we re trying to come up with a reasonable approach to a problem that exists and is very easily fixable.
i do think it has been alluded to many times on the forum and this thread that educating all is not really easy, nor at all possible. but these kids deserve the opportunity to play a game they love and to do it safely. it this keeps even one child out of danger and uninjured, i cannot fathom why everyone wouldn't be on board with keeping the kids safe.
i think we just want to accomplish a small safety change, before it goes to it's inevitable conclusion. that's something that i don't think anyone on this forum wants.

 

[coachjwb]

Mark and Dan ... great discussion and points, and thanks to you both for being part of our team which is meeting for the first time tomorrow evening! In my opinion, we need both education and mandating. We know that it will not be an easy road to achieve mandating, and it may or may not happen at all. In the meantime, we need more education and that is definitely on our agenda to talk about.

 

[Slugger]

This is from post #14? No org or association is prohibiting wearing masks, some of us feel they should be mandatory for at least corners and pitchers, and that is what this thread is all about, gaining acceptance of the mandatory wearing of protective masks. It has been stated that a number of college coaches ( by no means all of them) take a dim view of a girl wearing a mask. This is the antiquated outlook that we are trying to get changed. Masks by no means make anyone less of a player, they are simply a piece of protective equipment that can at the least be injury preventive and at best life saving.

This is from post #54? The attitude of "weak" or sissy players using masks still exists
This statement, ?gaining acceptance of the mandatory wearing of protective masks?, and ?The attitude of "weak" or sissy players using masks still exists?. Is what I think this is all about? Acceptance! Everybody is worried about acceptance of what everyone else thinks.

My daughter has been wearing one for 10 years. The only one I every hear talk about making the mask mandatory are the parents that have their player wearing one. Because they want to be accepted. They feel their kid is being discriminated against wearing one. So they want everyone to wear them. Please! Just be a parent and worry about your own kid.

Again my daughter wears one. But here is the difference. I don?t care what anyone thinks about my daughter wearing one. I could care less. Not only that, I have never heard a parent say that a player with a mask is less of a player or is a sissy. I have never heard that in my life. Yet this stuff comes up every year. I think the parent is having more of a hard time than their player is wearing a mask. I believe this is the real reason for wanting to make it mandatory. They just hide it under the word safety for all players.

As for the coaches that are making it mandatory that every player has to wear one regardless of the position. That?s fine and it might even be a good policy for your team. Just remember that the coach?s boxes are closer than the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] and 1[SUP]st[/SUP] base. (Well this could be different from field to field) So in the name of safety please wear a mask. I?m quite certain that a 16yro reflexes are better than a 40-60 yro coach. Plus you would be setting an example.

Coachjwb - When I read your post, I can see your passion and that you are really trying to do the right thing. I would just like the people (coaches, organizations) to be more like educators than dictators. Believe it or not, I?m not trying to fight you on this. But here is where I?m coming from. We live in a subdivision that has a park. The park is right in the middle of our subdivision. The park had a big Rainbow play system. It had swings, slides, ropes, etc. It had everything. There would be 25 kids every day on that thing. Then one day a boy was swinging and jumping of the swing. He was trying to see how far you could jump. Well of course he broke his ankle. 6 months later that play ground was dismantled and sold. Instead of the parents dealing with just their kid, they felt it was necessary to save every kid in the neighborhood and had the city come and remove it.

Now I?m not saying the player?s rights are being taken away by having mask mandatory. I get that. I?m just saying that as parents, we should be concerned about our kids only. Just because I?m a parent doesn?t make me a parent of someone else?s kid. But as a coach I can educate someone on the benefits of a mask.

 

[coachjwb]

Slugger ... I absolutely respect and agree with much of what you're saying.

Just for a little background, I'm not one of those parents who wants my daughter to be accepted. My daughter pitched 4 years of college (finished in 2012) and never wore one. Back when she was coming up (she actually didn't start playing fastpitch until she was 13), pretty much no one wore them ... but we were starting to see more of them at the younger ages about the time she started playing in college. In travel ball before her senior year of high school, she got nailed square in the leg during a game and I was the only one who knew how hard it was for to recover from the scare that put into her and how difficult it was for her psychologically to return to the circle. Around that same time, I also started hearing more and more stories about players getting hit in the face/head and I asked her what she thought about wearing a mask, and she wasn't having any of it. So we went through 4 years of college and I worried every time she pitched about her getting hit again, and what it would do to her, especially if it was in the face or head. But I never talked about it with her because I knew she wasn't going to wear a mask at that point in her career, and there was no sense in worrying her about it. I would say though there was at least 2-3 times each season when she snagged or deflected a ball headed back at her that could have done some serious damage. I think she always fielded her position extremely well (OK not counting throws to 1B!), but of course I may be a little biased.

While I get the playground story, I think this is a bit different. A hard hit ball hitting someone in the head is probably going to do a lot more damage than a fall off the swingset. Kids are going to get hurt ... heck I almost hurt myself seriously a few weeks ago when I missed the top step walking down a flight of steps in a parking garage. But forget the physical damage, and just imagine the amount of long-term psychological and emotional scarring a beautiful young lady might never recover from as the result of such an injury.

Education is a must no doubt and, when all is said and done, that may be all that's accomplished. All's I know is that as long as there are stories about college coaches who either won't recruit or frown on facemasks, there are going to be kids (and sometimes even their parents) who won't want to wear them. Or, there are going to be some who won't wear them because other kids will make fun of them if they're not required. We can discount that and say it's silly, but it happens to our children all of the time when they're growing up and our kids don't always tell us the real reason why they will or won't do things.

I think we need the sanctioning bodies to take steps on this particular issue to protect our children who play the game. I at least have to know that they are protecting children from at least very serious injuries as much as reasonably possible, and that I am too.

 

[Slugger]

Coachjwb… I really did try and separate you from the “accepted speech”. Sorry for not doing a better job of that. Ha Reading your post I can clearly see that is not your intentions.
Great response as always. I enjoy reading your stories as well.

 

[cobb_of_fury]

Slugger ... I absolutely respect and agree with much of what you're saying.

Just for a little background, I'm not one of those parents who wants my daughter to be accepted. My daughter pitched 4 years of college (finished in 2012) and never wore one. Back when she was coming up (she actually didn't start playing fastpitch until she was 13), pretty much no one wore them ... but we were starting to see more of them at the younger ages about the time she started playing in college. In travel ball before her senior year of high school, she got nailed square in the leg during a game and I was the only one who knew how hard it was for to recover from the scare that put into her and how difficult it was for her psychologically to return to the circle. Around that same time, I also started hearing more and more stories about players getting hit in the face/head and I asked her what she thought about wearing a mask, and she wasn't having any of it. So we went through 4 years of college and I worried every time she pitched about her getting hit again, and what it would do to her, especially if it was in the face or head. But I never talked about it with her because I knew she wasn't going to wear a mask at that point in her career, and there was no sense in worrying her about it. I would say though there was at least 2-3 times each season when she snagged or deflected a ball headed back at her that could have done some serious damage. I think she always fielded her position extremely well (OK not counting throws to 1B!), but of course I may be a little biased.

While I get the playground story, I think this is a bit different. A hard hit ball hitting someone in the head is probably going to do a lot more damage than a fall off the swingset. Kids are going to get hurt ... heck I almost hurt myself seriously a few weeks ago when I missed the top step walking down a flight of steps in a parking garage. But forget the physical damage, and just imagine the amount of long-term psychological and emotional scarring a beautiful young lady might never recover from as the result of such an injury.

Education is a must no doubt and, when all is said and done, that may be all that's accomplished. All's I know is that as long as there are stories about college coaches who either won't recruit or frown on facemasks, there are going to be kids (and sometimes even their parents) who won't want to wear them. Or, there are going to be some who won't wear them because other kids will make fun of them if they're not required. We can discount that and say it's silly, but it happens to our children all of the time when they're growing up and our kids don't always tell us the real reason why they will or won't do things.

I think we need the sanctioning bodies to take steps on this particular issue to protect our children who play the game.

Generally I believe is personal responsibility and that it is up to each individual to make his or her choice or in the case of minor children it's up to the parents to choose - BUT by having sanctioning body's require safety equipment it will cause the industry to standardize and quantify their safety testing and it will also remove any stigma that may still be attached to the masks, since the wearer will no longer have to "Choose" to wear a mask no college coach can question her "gut's" or whatever these coaches are questioning.
I argued for a long time against sanctioning body's mandating any equipment - but the more I thought about it, I realized it is not taking away freedom or liberty since you are free to play or not play. Other equipment and safety measures are mandated (Bats are required to meet certain standards batters must wear helmets catchers must wear equipment, etc .

By mandating masks for the most vulnerable players it will speed along the acceptance - I would like to see them next spring do like the NHL had done and mandate that starting this year all 12U players playing corner or pitching MUST wear masks through the end of their 16U season and just let that group carry it through. In 5 years it would be universal through 16U and no one would question it.

 

[coachjwb]

Again, thanks everyone for either your support or good debate on this subject. I am going to try to refrain as much as possible from any more preaching my views here, and will focus my efforts in the next several weeks in meeting with our team to sort out where we want to take this. Thanks again ...

 

[Slugger]

cobb_of_fury... "In 5 years it would be universal through 16U and no one would question it."

The only ones questioning it now are the ones that have already implement the mask. That is the point I’m trying to make. Make your player wear a mask, but that’s not good enough. We want everyone to wear a mask.

Who did the study that says only pitchers and corners? Just last night I saw a RF take one in the face. Granted the sun was a big factor. But why not make everyone wear them. What about the catchers? Should they be able to flip their helmet off? What happens if the ball hits them in the face on a pop up behind the plate? Or the runner jumping over them like that one video. A cleat could get them in the face.

Where would this stop?

Coachjwb.. Please don’t stop giving your views. That’s the whole point of dialog. The more information that is available, I think will help parents make a better choice. A parent might read something that they may have never considered. By you just starting this thread may have helped a parent just getting in to the sport.
This is education at work! I just found out about the chinstrap. haha

 

[coachjwb]

Thanks, Slugger ... very true ... and please keep giving yours as well!

P.S. But I still will resist the temptation to go into a long dissertation about why outfielders and catchers are different

 

[cobb_of_fury]

cobb_of_fury... "In 5 years it would be universal through 16U and no one would question it."

The only ones questioning it now are the ones that have already implement the mask. That is the point I?m trying to make. Make your player wear a mask, but that?s not good enough. We want everyone to wear a mask.

Who did the study that says only pitchers and corners? Just last night I saw a RF take one in the face. Granted the sun was a big factor. But why not make everyone wear them. What about the catchers? Should they be able to flip their helmet off? What happens if the ball hits them in the face on a pop up behind the plate? Or the runner jumping over them like that one video. A cleat could get them in the face.

Where would this stop?

Coachjwb.. Please don?t stop giving your views. That?s the whole point of dialog. The more information that is available, I think will help parents make a better choice. A parent might read something that they may have never considered. By you just starting this thread may have helped a parent just getting in to the sport.
This is education at work! I just found out about the chinstrap. haha

Slugger - every one is free to wear them or not, all im saying is eliminate the Most likely dangers by mandating them for those positions - as a coach I would encourage all the girls to wear them, as a parent I would want my daughter to wear one but it needs to start somewhere.

We can not legislate all the danger out all im looking for is eliminating the worst injuries and making it acceptable for girls who want to wear them in college

 

[TsDad]

I have made one post on this issue already and this will be my last. It is not the responsibility of a sanctioning body to protect our children by requiring them to wear a face mask. It is our responsibility as parents to protect our children. If you have concerns about your child's safety then by all means require them to wear a face mask, that's your right. If a coach has concerns about his players safety then that coach has the right to require all of his players to wear face masks, its his team, he makes the rules. This isn't a complicated subject, its very simple. Through education we can raises awareness, that's the first and most important step and this should be mandatory. We all have choices to make, educate yourself about the subject and make the right choice for you and your child.

 

[cobb_of_fury]

I have outlined my feeling more than once and will not bore everyone with them again BUT - If a Coach, Team or organization can mandate the wearing of a mask doesn?t the sanctioning body have the same responsibility? If they have a condition that has been deemed dangerous should they not take steps to rectify it? That was the point when I crossed over from individual responsibility to the responsibility of the sanctioning bodies. The power of the sanctioning bodies will help drive improvement in the safety equipment like masks.

If someone is killed or seriously hurtat one of these games it will either be the state legislating safety equipment or fundamentally changing the game in some way ? I don?t want ANY of that to happen. EVER.

 

[yossarian]

I have made one post on this issue already and this will be my last. It is not the responsibility of a sanctioning body to protect our children by requiring them to wear a face mask. It is our responsibility as parents to protect our children. If you have concerns about your child's safety then by all means require them to wear a face mask, that's your right. If a coach has concerns about his players safety then that coach has the right to require all of his players to wear face masks, its his team, he makes the rules. This isn't a complicated subject, its very simple. Through education we can raises awareness, that's the first and most important step and this should be mandatory. We all have choices to make, educate yourself about the subject and make the right choice for you and your child.

So I understand, you're saying education should be mandatory but safety equipment shouldn't be?

I think the points being made are that you can't trust everyone to make a safe choice, sadly. If this discussion was about batting helmets or seatbelts being a choice, you'd still have a number of people choosing to not make their kids wear either... On accounta it's their right to put their kids in harm's way.

 

[coachjwb]

I won't debate it here now, but just asking for a clarification from T's dad and some others who don't want the sanctioning bodies making safety rules. Are you opposed to football sanctioning bodies having mandated helmets and shoulder pads? Are you opposed to baseball and softball sanctioning bodies having mandated batting and baserunning helmets? Are you opposed to hockey sanctioning bodies having mandated helmets/masks? If not, are your feelings different here because you think facemasks for pitchers and corners are different because there's less of a safety risk?

Again, I'm not going to debate it (at least now) ... I just want to make sure I understand the argument and logic. Thanks!

 

[coachjwb]

I won't say a lot more on this subject yet, but I just want to thank everyone here who joined our team and who attended our first phone meeting last evening. We talked a lot about the importance of education on the subject, which I think most everyone agrees on ... more info to come later.

Jeff