Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Mandatory Mask..Coaches or Parents Decision?

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how about we just play wiffle ball and let all the nay sayers and experts on not over governing our kids/parents and coaches let this rest....


geeesh... can't believe it.

Oh, and everyone.... stop worrying about safety, it has to be over rated... and as a wise freind of mine says.... "behind the fence, all parents think their kids and parental decisions will surely make their DD's 10-0 and swing 1.000"...

And I hate seat belts... but goons, people, and all kinds of human factors create accidents and if avoidable, I guess we should try to do it and I'm not liberal. Hate large governments!!!

For us, again, mandated. You can play elsewhere. I won't have it on my squad. Ever had to carry a girl off the field for a crushed sinus cavity and broken nose at 10u? Well I have...

 

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In alignment w/ Les at that age & younger as it was mandatory for all my players to wear a game face up through 12U. Now that we are in 14U's, I leave the decision up to the parents/players. In the last two tourneys this year, we have had 3 shots up the middle at our pitchers - 2 were caught (EMR game) & I dont know how, but one made it through down in TN drilling our pitcher on her wrist of her throwing hand. My heart stopped & I was for sure it was broken but fortunately it was not. This pitcher has very good quickness & reactiveness but was helpless against this ball.

My daughter, who plays first most of the time & I believe to be very good defensively, will continue to wear a game face. The risk versus reward in not justify in my opinion. I would assume those who are against / frown upon game faces also believe batting helmets should go "maskless" as well.

Lenski also brings up a good pt about saturation. There are times we are playing a team wear the 3rd basemen is playing up, no gameface, fielding expertise lacking, were I am afraid she is going to get hurt w/ a ball we hit. I so bad want to tell her to scoot back (as I know we are not bunting) but I know I cant as that would look bad but I don't want to see any kid hurt.

 

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Thank you Lenski for also addressing the REAL issue! The safety concerns stem from using technologically advanced equipment that wasn't a part of the original game design. The invention of "Softball" is generally credited to George Hancock who used a tied-up SOFT boxing glove in a gymnasium as a ball. Hmmm... wonder why he didn't just use a baseball... or a hockey puck? DUH!! Google "origins of softball".

As far as the disagreement on the ball, I would go one step further. The "match" between the bat and ball, as far as exit velocity, is key. BOTH bat and ball must be strictly regulated. With the technology we have today, we could EXACTLY measure the speed and reaction times required at any given distance. These "reaction times" could be based on any given level of ability, from 10U beginners to the collegiate level. IMO, there is NO EXCUSE for not having a reasonable level of safety - at least to the extent of what existed 20 - 30 years ago. Bring the game back in line with the original intent. Then start training your daughters to be REAL hitters and fielders.

There is a REASON fielder's masks did not exist until very recently, and it utterly baffles me why very few people posting even seem concerned. I am first in line when it comes to protecting our kids, but I also believe in being honest about the situation, and the CAUSE. Pleading that the bats are "too ingrained" is a lame excuse - a LAZY excuse. This has nothing to do with vanity, peer pressure, looking "stupid", or whatever. There is no doubt that with the current "hot" bats and balls masks are a common sense necessity - BUT it wasn't always that way! I don't view the wearing of fielder's masks as a "natural" progression of the game of softball. Safety equipment in other sports (football, hockey, etc.) has been in response to improving safety with better safety technology, and medical knowledge. However, "softball" stepped over the line and introduced bats and balls that required not only the existing safety equipment, but also equipment to protect kids specifically from the dangers of the altered bats and balls.

I'm not a proponent of regulation. I think common sense and education should dictate the decisions parents make about their kid's safety. HOWEVER, whenever a company or organization is freely permitted to change a kid's game from relatively safe to extremely hazardous, action should be taken. Wearing masks might be a temporary fix, but ignoring the root problem will only send the message that it's OK to abuse our children.

P.S. I no longer have a kid playing the game, but hopefully someone else who does will take heed to start a movement to protect their children.

 

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You can argue all you want about bat performance and the fact you hate it that lesser talented players are in the circuit playing against your DD. Guess what? You can't control that and it isn't going to change. So get over it. The cold, hard, absolute fact is this is about money. Period. Bats are outrageously priced, but we all keep buying them for our DD's year in and year out. Add in the fact there is money to be made on the $45 Game Face and Rip It Guards that truly cost $8 to make.... and everybody in marketing and manufacturing softball gear is smiling all the way to the bank.

Does everybody get it now????

Ahhh....but it could change. It did in college baseball and it's effective 1/1/2012 in High School baseball. From the NFHS website:

A change to Rule 1-3-2 regarding bat specifications was made in the hope it will clarify bat compliance. The rule, which will be effective January 1, 2012, specifies that the bat should be a ?smooth cylinder implement from the top of the cap to the top of the knob.?
?The committee was looking to clarify the rule and make the purchase of bats an easier process,? said Elliot Hopkins, NFHS director of educational services and liaison to the Baseball Rules Committee. ?We want to make sure that kids and parents know what is permissible.?
The change will also require that all non-wood bats meet the Batted Ball Coefficient of Restitution (BBCOR) performance standard, which is the standard used by the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA). Formerly, non-wood bats had to meet the Ball Exit Speed Ratio (BESR) standard.
The new rule also states that non-wood bats must be labeled with a rectangular certification mark ?a minimum of a half-inch on each side and located on the barrel of the bat in any contrasting color.? The new standard ensures that performances by non-wood bats are more comparable to those of wood bats. It?s also expected to minimize risk, improve play and increase teaching opportunities.
?After working with the NCAA and having access to its research, we?ve concluded it?s in our best interest to make this change,? Hopkins said. ?BBCOR includes the BESR standard, so we?re actually expanding upon our current standard, which will be more appropriate for our age and skill level.?

The new bats, which perform like a wood bat, still cost upwards of $400 so the bat companies are still making money. The bat companies are happy and the chance of injury is reduced.

Good wood bats cost anywhere from $70 to $150 so it is still cost efficient to purchase the new BBCOR bats because chances are a wood bat will fail way sooner than the new non-wood bats.

Len​

 

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Partial quote from the NFHS website:
The new standard ensures that performances by non-wood bats are more comparable to those of wood bats. It's also expected to minimize risk, improve play and increase teaching opportunities.

Quote from Lenski:
"The new bats, which perform like a wood bat, still cost upwards of $400 so the bat companies are still making money. The bat companies are happy and the chance of injury is reduced."

So, now we know the WHAT and WHY of the dangers of ball exit speeds caused by out of control bat/ball technology. Baseball seems to be "getting it"... when will women's fastpitch finally get on board? I like the quoted "teaching opportunities"! ...As in: LEARN HOW TO HIT!

Imagine the pride of seeing your daughter drive the ball hard through the gap, or even hit a home run... with an "ordinary" bat! It CAN be done. All it takes is what everyone already knows, but just haven't developed the discipline to work consistently to achieve. Take pride in doing YOUR part to make the game a little safer for EVERY kid.

 

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Through all the bickering; through all the arrogant posts; through all the determination to be right and to be heard; and through all those who tried to reason with them.... there is only one clear message. It is about money. Plain and simple.

A) And the obvious one.......the bat companies are out to make a buck.
B) ASA, NSA, USSSA, etc. make money on teams.
C) Travel teams charge an high fees for their teams. More and more travel teams are popping up, which generates more fees, which generates more income to support those teams.
D) Softball in general, beginning with Olympics and all the way down to Little League, want viewership. In order to maintain viewship, the powers that be have to make it exciting to watch and enticing to tune in. And I am referring to TV time. Girls who see players on TV want to emulate them. (Just as boys dream of playing MLB from the age of 8 from watching their favorite team or player on ESPN.)
E) In order for the networks and cable channels to carry the games, the game has to have guaranteed viewship. The only way to guarantee it, is to make sure there is action. The only way to guarantee action, AKA offense, is to produce bats that have pop.
....And we have come full circle.

You can argue all you want about bat performance and the fact you hate it that lesser talented players are in the circuit playing against your DD. Guess what? You can't control that and it isn't going to change. So get over it. The cold, hard, absolute fact is this is about money. Period. Bats are outrageously priced, but we all keep buying them for our DD's year in and year out. Add in the fact there is money to be made on the $45 Game Face and Rip It Guards that truly cost $8 to make.... and everybody in marketing and manufacturing softball gear is smiling all the way to the bank.

Does everybody get it now????

C) Travel teams charge an high fees for their teams. More and more travel teams are popping up, which generates more fees, which generates more income to support those teams.[/QUOTE]

we only charge what is required to play our schedule. Any left over is returned... not about the $$ here. If we played 3 tournaments... our fees would like $150 per player or in that ball park. Since we are true non for profit in that we don't keep monies left over it's not such a big deal. Our families want to play ball at a medium to high level (team/coach dependent) vs their local recreational options and service them fairly adequately to good for a price that is hard to beat... "at cost".

I will say I encourage US manufacturers to make money in our economy.
Love your points for many are agreed to by me and I'm sure many will side with you as well, just wanted to chime in on "C" point you made and the following...

At some point it does cost money to operate teams and they all must obtain equipment while continuous improvement is a wonderful thing which ultimately drives new products, new standards due to increased technology of products resulting in "turn over" of equipment, and more informed coaches will cause us to spend cash. Last I heard none of these companies are fortune 500 companies. Most are mom and pop and probably don't need a bail out. New upstart teams will always exist for the probably 3-5 reasons commonly discussed on this forum (another beat to death topic). Besides... sell a product one time in 50 years... how many of us would have jobs on that principle? I guess we'd all just be sitting on a ton of cash in the bank because we'd never need to purchase "XYZ" product again... or would we...?

 

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The base path length, never seems to get discussed. Boys start at a certain point and gradually move back as the athletes get bigger, faster, stronger. The Olympic team, the best of the best still runs the same distance as a 9 year old. Corners might be able to play a little farther back, still no relief for the pitcher though.

 

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P.S. I no longer have a kid playing the game, but hopefully someone else who does will take heed to start a movement to protect their children.

What was the "movement" that caused the changes on the baseball side?

 

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At the beginning of our spring season I told 38 parents that my first priority is safety of there daughter. I take that responsibility very seriously. I made it mandatory for corners and pitcher to wear masks, no dissucition. I had several parents say thank you, they had been trying to get there DD to wear one for a long time. Out of 36 parents not one complained about having to get one and have their DD ware one.

How many of you coaches say what happens on the field is my responsibility and you don?t want parents interfering with the decision that you have made. (player positions, batting order, how you run your infield) Is this any different? This is my field, and you have trusted me with the most valuable thing you have, your DD and I treat each and every one of them as they were my own. I made a promise to do the best I can.

Are there people and lawyers out there that will try to sue a coach for making it mandatory? You bet. That is part of the sick world we live in. Anyone can sue anyone for anything. The question is as a coach, can you live with your decision? I can.

If you want to sue me for trying to stick to my promise and protect your DD the best way I can. Go for it, it will be the best argument I have had in a long time.

I made a promise.

 

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We have kids hitting very well using every bat produced.

I have seen the swing mechanics change since 1996 as that is when I first started teaching girls to hit just like the boys. Many of the high school coaches started complaining because it has a slight up swing verses level to down and that is still how some coaches think.

Toby Paulson's daughter hit one out of the park at 11 years old and someone ask what bat she was using! Toby proudly stood up and said,"It is a Walmart Special $59.95 plus tax because that is the cheapest one I could find!" and "It is not the bat, it is her coach!"

We teach how to hit up the middle first and then outside as we feel anyone can pull a ball as that is what most do.

Make a mistake (hang it over the plate) and your pitcher is at risk and we have hit our share of them. The infielders can take the position up close if you choose and advance at your own risk is my opinion. I never tell a hitter to pull up when hitting if someone is playing in too close.

It comes down to do YOU want a mask or not....pretty simple if not live with your decision.

The neuro muscular skills of females are not as good as the males especially at 9 to 12 years old. Source Dr. David Marshall Children's Hospital Atlanta.

The studies done in the 1990's at Arizona U. by PhD T. Brahill, recommended the lowering of the weight of the bats to make it easier to swing with bad mechanics and then they were taught better swing mechanics and it truly changed the game.

I have a saying, "Baseball and softball is a game played by kids and is orchestrated and run by adults and adults do not like too loose to other adults or kids!"

Howard

 

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What was the "movement" that caused the changes on the baseball side?

Here is a link to the complete article in which Lenski posted key points:

http://www.nfhs.org/content.aspx?id=2772

I might suggest contacting individuals named in this article for guidance, and why they decided to institute changes.


** Pitcher's parents **
PLEASE NOTE Howard's comments about where his students are taught to hit the ball. This is a high level game strategy that should be taught to ALL kids - and it is absolutely essential for hitting at the collegiate level. Simply making contact with the ball is not always going to get the job done. Old school terminology might be "place hitting", but it is an art at higher levels. Every top level college team demands it. While hitters are getting better, pitchers MUST do their part to keep ahead of batter skills. An unskilled pitcher facing highly skilled hitters is an accident waiting to happen.

I think we've seen this year in HS ball what an extra 3 feet can do. The batters now have a few more milliseconds to decide. This translates into more balls put into play. It also translates into more line shots at the pitcher's head. Why? Most, but not all, of these shots directly back at the pitcher were "served up" right down the middle. I think Howard can explain where those pitches will be returned by a well timed swing. Moral to the story: Instill a mindset in your pitcher that flat pitches squarely over the plate are DANGEROUS to her health. Know the batting order, and how to pitch to that lineup. Pitchers must think like great hitters - actually the inverse. Know what the hitter is expecting (or wants) and avoid serving them their favorite dish.

Remember, a typical HS batter now has about .5 seconds to react. But a pitcher only has about .25 seconds to react to a line shot back at her, so stopping a line shot with her glove is sheer luck! Accurate pitch placement combined with batter education will greatly reduce the odds of being drilled. However, a wise parent will be in tune with their daughter's skill level, and must decide if a mask is prudent for her safety. Don't wait for someone else to decide for you - make a parental decision!

 

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Remember, a typical HS batter now has about .5 seconds to react. But a pitcher only has about .25 seconds to react to a line shot back at her, so stopping a line shot with her glove is sheer luck! Accurate pitch placement combined with batter education will greatly reduce the odds of being drilled. However, a wise parent will be in tune with their daughter's skill level, and must decide if a mask is prudent for her safety. Don't wait for someone else to decide for you - make a parental decision!

It takes approximately 300 milliseconds for the human eye to blink.

At 60 mph, a ball will travel about 26 feet in the blink of an eye. At 100 mph, it will go 44 feet.

What's the max legal speed of a ball coming off a bat during it's testing to be certified? What's the distance to the rubber? Hmmmmmmm.

 

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Les - I didn't mean to sound accusatory of any Travel organizations, hope it didn't come across that way. Just pointing out that money makes the Travel Softball World go 'round. I don't doubt you are an upstanding guy, have followed some of your posts for years. I also agree with your point about our ongoing economy. I guess that is also what I was trying to say without making the original post turn into a novel. I am not disagreeing with the fact technology will always improve, that is what keeps all of us employed. Just wanted to point out the obvious and that is we in travel softball, or softball for that matter, seem to fall under the same umbrella as the rest of our society and that we are ultimately driven by the networks and merchandisers and product manufacturers, and that we will always want the latest and the greatest for our dd's and our respective teams. Vicious cycle.

thanks. Didn't think so... but had to reply in that context. No biggie...

 

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It takes approximately 300 milliseconds for the human eye to blink.

At 60 mph, a ball will travel about 26 feet in the blink of an eye. At 100 mph, it will go 44 feet.

What's the max legal speed of a ball coming off a bat during it's testing to be certified? What's the distance to the rubber? Hmmmmmmm.

You're making mine and Sammy's point about the hot bats. Bring the bats down to wood-like playability and the sweet spot shrinks and the batted ball speed reduces. Results would be less hard hits and more time to react. Do not put a band-aid on the problem by adding extra safety equipment, fix the problem. If they do nerf the bats and you still want your child to wear a fielders mask, I honestly have no problem with that.

Len

 

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I sleep very well having our 11u pitchers and corners wear a mask, especially against the more experienced good hitting 98 teams.

If my 3b got her face destroyed and wasn't wearing a mask, I wouldn't sleep so good. You guys do what you want, my players will wear them.

As far as research goes, I have seen a player saved by a mask first hand. She got drilled in the forehead and wasn't even phased. Didn't understand why her coaches came running on the field all concerned. No mask and it would not have been a happy ending.

I agree 100% with Mad Hornet...I've seen it more than one instance at 3b a ball takes a bad hop and a girls gets a bloody nose, split lip, etc.

 

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My DD plays 3rd base and pitches for her team and it will be a cold day in H*** before she takes the field without her mask. She has tried before and we have made her go back into the dugout and get it.

 

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OK - we've had posts saying DD wears a mask, and some discussion about who is responsible for the decision...

Maybe this could qualify for a poll, but here's the question:

If you require your DD to wear a fielder mask, it's because:

a.) I always have required her to wear a mask since she started playing.
b.) The bats/balls are the main reason
c.) I don't trust her fielding abilities
d.) Other: __________________________

 

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Seriously? D) - Love the pretty face and want to keep it that way.
She has quick reflexes and reactions when she is pitching. IT IS A SAFETY PRECAUTION. Bottom line. I bought it, she wears it, has never thought twice about it. It's like batting gloves or sliding shorts. Part of her game.

Really?? Your avatar is your MASKLESS daughter pitching in a game.....correct?

Len

 

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It takes approximately 300 milliseconds for the human eye to blink.

At 60 mph, a ball will travel about 26 feet in the blink of an eye. At 100 mph, it will go 44 feet.

What's the max legal speed of a ball coming off a bat during it's testing to be certified? What's the distance to the rubber? Hmmmmmmm.

Actually it is about 300 to 400 milliseconds.

So if we pitched a ball from about 38 feet at 45 MPH it may cross the plate in about .576 milliseconds.

Now at 65 MPH it would cross home plate at .399 milliseconds.

So what is the difference in .576 and .399? It is about .177! Now the blink of an eye of .300 and .400 on average has relevance.

Your players better be good as we teach allowing the weight to shift during the separate to toe touch to allow for the speed of the ball and we pick up on timing by keeping the hands back as our weight shifts forward and can make up the difference.

I will throw in a drill that makes me wonder why you would do it? People stand in front of a hitter and throw soup beans at the hitter. Have you seen anyone get hit in the face doing this? Yes I have and she had a welt under her right eye! If a worker was required to do this OHSAS would fine them for putting your employees at risk because they are not using safety glasses.

If you can not hit a soup bean with a softball bat you are already in trouble in my opinion.

Even a whiffle ball can take an eye out.

Remember you must be able to hit the ball in about the blink of eye and your reaction time better be perfect.

Howard

 

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Really?? Your avatar is your MASKLESS daughter pitching in a game.....correct?

Len

Hmmmmm.....nice observation Len.