What happens when statman is around (at GAPSS edition)

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Oh! Did i not say " never have i told the opposing coach of a violation"!!

I did tell the coach that would be in violation!!! That is the way to handle it professionally. Not cause a uprising by some would be professionals.

The td did not handle the situation correctly!!!!!!

The other coach was out of control! So he rewards him by telling him the other team has an illeagle player so he wins by forfeit! If that isn't some good old boy cr**.

IMHO

Rob is a great person and coach. Static is a great and respectible org. The player in question is a wonderful young lady and a wonderful player with an extremely bright future. None of the three mentioned would intentionaly come anywhere close to doing anything that was not totally "above board". I know this because I have had the privilage to have watched and coached against Static (Rob's team) since 10-U. I have had the privilage to watch the "illegal player" for two years now. These people are true pro's.

If there was a misunderstanding about the "open roster", so be it. Obviously it wasn't a problem in any other game for any other team or any other player. I find that interesting to say the least.

People have talked about class and integrity in this thread. Let's take a little different look at it.

If a TD or UIC came to me late in a game and told me that the team that was kicking my team's butt real bad had a "non-roster or illegal player" that was just put in the game as a sub I would say "so what?!?! That's not the reason we are losing this game and I refuse to get a cheap win on a technicality". Finding the easy way out is part of the problem with the world today and I would refuse to teach our girls that way. Especially in this situation.

That said, please don't make the mistake that I think that rules should not be followed. They should. They should be clear.

Jealousy and ego should be kept in the parking lot.

Thanks,

Bob

 

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who was the losing team that benefited from this situation ? was it posted earlier in this thread ?

 

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Oh! Did i not say " never have i told the opposing coach of a violation"!!

I did tell the coach that would be in violation!!! That is the way to handle it professionally. Not cause a uprising by some would be professionals.

The td did not handle the situation correctly!!!!!!

The other coach was out of control! So he rewards him by telling him the other team has an illeagle player so he wins by forfeit! If that isn't some good old boy cr**.

So as a TD you tell the violator they are in violation but not the umpire or opposing coach? Why shouldn't the opposing coach know? If one team is doing something illegal, intentional or not, I don't get where you think the professional thing to do is only tell the coach doing the illegal thing. If anyone should be told shouldn't it be the umpire? Just trying to understand this.

I will add I am positive that Robb wouldn't knowingly do something illegal. But I don't get the uproar over who is told and that some think only the one team should be told. Seems to me both coaches and the ump should be told and that they should work it out by the rules. Sounds like it was in this case.

 

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I don't think anyone has insinuated that this was something done for one of his "buddies". Maybe I'm oversimplifying things, but I don't understand why it's so hard for people to distinguish between showcase and elimination play. I don't think there is any harm in allowing flexibility with the rosters if the games don't effect bracket play.

This event was a very good college showcase however, "the way it is structured" there is no difference between pool play and brkt play.....No rules were broken... The team may be eliminated however; the players are free "per tournament rules" to continue on since no player is officially on ANY team...

At this event there were Never any "official line up cards" presented before ANY game so, no need for rosters. TD and Umpires have no idea who is playing for who and why should they care... There job is just to call balls and strikes and umpire the action as it happens on the field and keep them playing...

Players full names did not need to be put anywhere in ANY game....

All you need is the Number of batters and subs with a number or color of shirt etc to distinguish them to provide to the other teams score keeper.
So, obviously this event was about Showcase and not championship play "like it should be".

That is also why there were so many players playing on multiple teams in both pool and brkt play. Great keep them playing....

All the rest of the games continued with free rostering like the tournament was designed. The only issue was "this game in question" with this player for some "unknown reason"...

Going forward GAPSS should look at modeling their rules like Sluggerfest if they want clear consistent tournament play or, use playing rules from Stingrays or one of the other showcase events that may run a little looser "shut up and play" for more exposure...

 

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I believe Pool play at GAPSS is like a scrimmage. It has no bearing on the bracket or tournament results. They are just played for girls to showcase their talents to the scouts.

Since no player is officially on any team the only rule changes from pool to bracket play at GAPSS is you go from bench line up and unlimited defensive substitutions to ASA9/10 DP/FLX and courtesy runners with a sub...

 

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This event was a very good college showcase however, "the way it is structured" there is no difference between pool play and brkt play.....No rules were broken...

@coachdennis:

We had a line-up card from the opposing team in every pool game, though sometimes the umps did not take team line-ups. Our umps definitely did take line-up cards during elimination games and one of them stressed that the ASA rules regarding courtesy runners applied.

We thought the distinction between pool play rules and the elimination rules was pretty clear. Pool play was free substitution, bat 'em all and "once bracket play starts straight ASA line-up and substitution rules will apply". Granted that doesn't directly address using a player from a team that has been eliminated during a bracket game, but if in elimination games you can't freely pick your courtesy runner from your regular roster without reference to ASA rules, I'd pretty much assume that you also can't use players from teams that have been eliminated. Should have at least asked before using that player.

The coach for the team that was forfeited has been stand-up about taking responsibility for the situation. Kudos to him.

 

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@coachdennis:

We had a line-up card from the opposing team in every pool game, though sometimes the umps did not take team line-ups. Our umps definitely did take line-up cards during elimination games and one of them stressed that the ASA rules regarding courtesy runners applied.

We thought the distinction between pool play rules and the elimination rules was pretty clear. Pool play was free substitution, bat 'em all and "once bracket play starts straight ASA line-up and substitution rules will apply". Granted that doesn't directly address using a player from a team that has been eliminated during a bracket game, but if in elimination games you can't freely pick your courtesy runner from your regular roster without reference to ASA rules, I'd pretty much assume that you also can't use players from teams that have been eliminated. Should have at least asked before using that player.

The coach for the team that was forfeited has been stand-up about taking responsibility for the situation. Kudos to him.

The reason the umpires did not take the your line up cards is because they did not need too. Your bench is your roster in these non roster events.

Not sure where you found the "distinction" in playing rules outside of line up and courtesy runners since they are not on their website unless, they had a secret coaches meeting some where that coaches could turn in their bracket play rosters...

Your bench at the time of the game is your roster in any open roster event such as this one...

Rob has did a great job of taking ownership even though he broke no rule...

 

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FWIW, we almost had a similar situation this weekend at GAPSS. We had an injury to our back-up catcher on Saturday during an elimination game. We had a ex-player from a couple years ago that was willing to fill-in if needed. She had previously played for another team in GAPSS, and they had been eliminated. I called Mike and asked whether this would be permitted since it was an "open roster" event. He called me back about 10:45 Saturday night, and stated that it was not permitted. So, we did not use the player on Sunday during the remainder of the elimination bracket.

I didn't believe it was perfectly clear whether it was permitted, so that is why I asked the question to the TD. He called me back and gave me the answer.

 

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So as a TD you tell the violator they are in violation but not the umpire or opposing coach? Why shouldn't the opposing coach know? If one team is doing something illegal, intentional or not, I don't get where you think the professional thing to do is only tell the coach doing the illegal thing. If anyone should be told shouldn't it be the umpire? Just trying to understand this.

I will add I am positive that Robb wouldn't knowingly do something illegal. But I don't get the uproar over who is told and that some think only the one team should be told. Seems to me both coaches and the ump should be told and that they should work it out by the rules. Sounds like it was in this case.

If this is hard to understand. Let me do it in baby steps for you. Before the problem occurs or before the game starts or during the game when the girl was on the bench or the girl was seen working out with the team. Approach the coach and let him know he will be in violation and get it fixed. Rob or any other coach would not intentionally break the rules.
so why cause all the problems as a td

 

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@Coachdennis:

Go to www.gapss.org and click on "rules" on the left hand side.

I can save you some time by quoting from those public rules:
"Official Rules: This tournament is ASA sanctioned and all play will be governed by ASA fastpitch softball rules. All teams must be ASA sanctioned. (Sanctioning available at sign in). During pool play games, teams may choose to bat their entire roster and/or make unlimited defensive substitutions. Once bracket play starts, straight ASA line-up and substitution rules will apply."

No secret coaches cabal here.

Or maybe you are just saying that this paragraph didn't specifically address using a player from another participating team in an elimination game? For me, it would definitely raise enough doubt that I would ask before using the player in the elimination game. Can you really say that in a tournament that used only ASA rules, both in pool game and in elimination bracket, you think that a team can pick up a player from another team that has been eliminated? Unless and until you can say that, the public statement that ASA rules apply in bracket play strikes me as more than enough notice that a team cannot use a player from another team that has been eliminated.

 

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As cgs has stated, unless a tournament has stated exceptions to ASA rules, the ASA rulebook applies. Nothing was stated in GAPSS rules about non-rostered players as far as I can tell, even for pool play. I think it just says you can bat your entire roster, not that you can bat your entire roster and some people from another team's roster.

 

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If this is hard to understand. Let me do it in baby steps for you. Before the problem occurs or before the game starts or during the game when the girl was on the bench or the girl was seen working out with the team. Approach the coach and let him know he will be in violation and get it fixed. Rob or any other coach would not intentionally break the rules.
so why cause all the problems as a td

Before you said NEVER have I told an opposing coach of a violation in response to a situation where a TD told an opposing coach that a violation occurred but now you are saying tell them before they are in violation. In this case the TD found out after the violation occurred. Anyways, if as a TD you found out about a violation that ALREADY occurred, would you still only tell the violating coach?

You talk about professionalism in TD's and as one yourself is your tone in these posts, the !!!! and the "Let me do it in baby steps for you" what you consider acting with professionalism?

 

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@Coachdennis:

Go to www.gapss.org and click on "rules" on the left hand side.

I can save you some time by quoting from those public rules:
"Official Rules: This tournament is ASA sanctioned and all play will be governed by ASA fastpitch softball rules. All teams must be ASA sanctioned. (Sanctioning available at sign in). During pool play games, teams may choose to bat their entire roster and/or make unlimited defensive substitutions. Once bracket play starts, straight ASA line-up and substitution rules will apply."

No secret coaches cabal here.

Or maybe you are just saying that this paragraph didn't specifically address using a player from another participating team in an elimination game? For me, it would definitely raise enough doubt that I would ask before using the player in the elimination game. Can you really say that in a tournament that used only ASA rules, both in pool game and in elimination bracket, you think that a team can pick up a player from another team that has been eliminated? Unless and until you can say that, the public statement that ASA rules apply in bracket play strikes me as more than enough notice that a team cannot use a player from another team that has been eliminated.

You are correct.
Rob was playing by ASA rules as it related to substitutions, line up and courtesy runners.

The rules never address rostering since it is a non roster/open roster event there is no need too...Your bench is your roster....

If the TD wanted to run the event as a rosterd event he needed state that and require that ALL teams submit a roster prior to bracket play or pool play or whenever he wanted to choose to change the format.

Again, this was a great Showcase event. The rules were set up for exhibition play not championship play as it should be...

As I stated in an earlier post... This could be avoided in the future by modeling the playing rules of Stingrays for more relaxed play, open roster and the well known TEXAS SHUT UP AND PLAY clause in the protest section or run it like Sluggerfest if you want a rostered event..

No rule was broken therefore, no forfeit should have been declared.

 

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As cgs has stated, unless a tournament has stated exceptions to ASA rules, the ASA rulebook applies. Nothing was stated in GAPSS rules about non-rostered players as far as I can tell, even for pool play. I think it just says you can bat your entire roster, not that you can bat your entire roster and some people from another team's roster.

This tournament had a HUGE stated exception...

"Non roster or Open roster event" in both pool and bracket play....

Most are not familiar with open rostering or no roster events because you only see it at 18U and above, league play, college showcase events or mens softball...

The idea is to play games...Teams can bring in players...borrow players...have guest players play an few innings so coaches can look at them, whatever is needed to ...Play Games in front of the coaches...After all it is a showcase 1st... Hardware second event...

As stated earlier, In any open roster event your bench is your roster...

In some open / non-roster events they clearly state that your lineup card "is your roster" for that game and must be given to the opposite team with numbers and subs.

 

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Based on the varying views and interpretation, we will address this in the rules 'specifically' for next year so that we don't have this unfortunate issue re-occur.

 

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Before you said NEVER have I told an opposing coach of a violation in response to a situation where a TD told an opposing coach that a violation occurred but now you are saying tell them before they are in violation. In this case the TD found out after the violation occurred. Anyways, if as a TD you found out about a violation that ALREADY occurred, would you still only tell the violating coach?

You talk about professionalism in TD's and as one yourself is your tone in these posts, the !!!! and the "Let me do it in baby steps for you" what you consider acting with professionalism?

I didn't think it was hard to follow. If you go back in the posts. I think the td seen her on the bench or he said that after the game. I don't know what your problem is. Maybe I was not clear on my previous statements. The !!! is because are girls got scrrreeeewwwd. This spelling is a team joke.

 

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This tournaments open roster format is a good format for the College Showcase Player and used by many showcase events including this tournament with the exception of the game in question.

Unfortunately; not all coaches have participated in open roster events and fall back to what they have been accustomed too. TDs also can make mistakes with these formats as in this case.

The bad thing is, one of the the original posters implied Rob had broken a rule or used an illegal player and after reflecting on the tournament format/rules he did not.
Unfortunately, It cut short his teams showcase opportunities but, did give some opportunities to some other ladies to showcase their talents and hopefully they made the most of it.

Outside of a bad hair cut, Rob is an upstanding coach that gets his team ready to play and has them playing in some of the biggest events in the country. Even though he did nothing wrong he has shouldered responsibility for not getting clarification from the TD. The TD admitted he did receive inquires about the rostering rules and for each call he most likely had 5 or 6 no calls...

Going forward, it is important for all to understand what an "open roster or non-roster format" means and how they operate. After 25+ years of coaching or participating in open and closed events I have seen stuff like this happen.

Again, this is a great showcase and there were plenty of colleges looking at many players.

I am sure next year the tournament committee will look at changes modeling some of the other open roster format showcases or explain how they want this open roster event to operate, like a shut up and play format like Stingrays and most showcases or like old Sluggerfest where rosters are required at check in with no pick ups.

 

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I didn't think it was hard to follow. If you go back in the posts. I think the td seen her on the bench or he said that after the game. I don't know what your problem is. Maybe I was not clear on my previous statements. The !!! is because are girls got scrrreeeewwwd. This spelling is a team joke.

I figured out the problem, you can't read. LOL. Below is the quote form the TD's post. Read it slowly. He did not see the girl in question with Robb's team. He watch her with her team. He found about the violation after it happened. And handled it well by going to the other coach to see if they wanted to address it or let it slide. Going to Robb would have done no good as the violation already happened. He couldn't undo it at that point. Below it is a quote from Robb who states it was his screw up. He owned up to it, something you can't seem to accept. I'd talk to him. ;&

On Sunday morning, while making my rounds I had the opportunity to watch a great 16/18u bracket game. I recognized one of the players whom I had known for some time so I stuck around to see how it ended. The team with the player on it that I recognized lost a tough game. A couple hours later while working at Liberty Park, I received a call from another tournament official saying that he heard that the player who I had just watched lose was now playing on a field at Liberty Park with a different team. The information was in fact true, the player was now wearing a different teams uniform and was on the field and in the game.

At this point I felt I had two choices, inform the umpire of the illegal player and have him decide how to handle it OR speak to the opposing coach to see if he wanted to have the issue addressed with the umpire (or just let it go). I chose to speak to the opposing coach first (thinking if he didn't care then I would address the issue after the game) - the opposing coach said he wanted the issue to be addressed with the umpires. I convened a conference with the umpires, UIC and ASA district commissioner. The decision was made that the team had to forfeit the game.

"My error in judgment cost us a game and ended our weekend. I again apologize to the girls for letting this happen. I did not even know the player we picked up prior to her playing."

 

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Then you are classless. *** you posted your remark. I also said I think the td seen her on the bench or he said that after the game. You are the professional now. Just wish we could talk face to face because I can't type.

 

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This tournament had a HUGE stated exception...

"Non roster or Open roster event" in both pool and bracket play....

Didn't realize that, as I really had no reason to read through all the tournament rules, but that would seem to change things.

Anyway, the response of GAPSS-TD is definitely the best course to take for the future.