Bush league or no?

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• May 13, 2009

• #1

Was at a high school game the other today, watching a quality team that I highly respect, and realized that their baserunners on 2nd base were signaling the batter on where the catcher was setting up (inside or out). Do you consider that bush league or not at this level? If not, should a coach train his or her team to do this?

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #2

Totally bush to me but that's me. We had a 12u team from east of the Ohio border do that this weekend where coach would tap her shoulder as to where catcher was set up. They were also stealing signs. Battered would look at coach giving signal and batter new change up or what ever. But I figured if we execute it still don't matter, but we didn't always execute so it was our problem. Not stealing of signs

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #3

I consider it bush for the runner at second to be out there pointing and gyrating. We see this all the time in softball and I just shake my head every time I see it. Yes, the defense can easily work around it and we do, but that's not the point.

In a game involving Long Beach State on one of the cable channels recently, a baserunner at second was doing this. On the next two pitches the other team attempted pickoffs and laid a skull tag right on her, trying to send her a message. The color commentator (to her credit!) was explaining that it's bush to be out there at second pointing and that the runner or the batter could now expect to be sent a message. After the other team drilled her in the head twice with tags, the commentator kept saying that's what you get if you're going to pull that nonsense. Then the runner had to dive back into the base on another play and hurt her ankle. The commentator stopped just short of saying "poetic justice".

If teams want to violate the unwritten rules of the game, they should be prepared to pay the price that goes along with the violation.

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #4

Thats why we teach are catchers not to set up till the pitch is ready to be delivered and stealing signals is a normal part of the game it seems.

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #5

Most of the batters are too focused on the pitcher, and rightfully so, to notice the runner on 2nd base.

Kim Morganson of Thomas Worthington HS and the Ohio Nightmare does an excellent job, in my opinion, of not giving away the location until it is too late. Great technique.

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #6

I agree with Joe to a certain extent, but as a hitter, I have to tell you that if the catcher is setting up the location at the very last moment (which she should be), it would more distracting than helpful to focus my attention away from the pitcher's hip and onto some signal from the coach or the runner at second. Besides, at what level can you trust that the pitcher will actually hit the mit? Can you also trust that the catcher won't set up outside and the pitcher won't throw inside and drill you when you start diving over the plate?

As for signs, if they're stealing your changeup sign, just change it.

If they're making a big, blatant deal out of calling pitches and stealing signs--- like when I saw and heard some MOTHERS IN THE BLEACHERS announcing locations last summer--- then, well, it has to be handled in the time-honored manner. The problem, of course, is that any coaches, players or parents who are ignorant enough to do those sort of things probably wouldn't understand the message when it's delivered. LOL.

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #7

So....Is it bush league if the catcher picks up the steal sign from the 3rd base coach and signals her short-stop that a steal is coming. If players on the field signal..not yell... but signal, I don't see it as bush.

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #8

"After the other team drilled her in the head twice with tags, the commentator kept saying that's what you get if you're going to pull that nonsense. Then the runner had to dive back into the base on another play and hurt her ankle. The commentator stopped just short of saying "poetic justice". "

I think drilling the runner was the bush league action.

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #9

So is it bush if the batter notices the 3rd baseman shading towards short or sees the centerfiilder shift? , no one makes a connection to a pitcher if she sees the batter crowd the plate or is to far off the plate and the pitcher adjusts to her stance, or the catcher calls a pitch to counter a hitters stance or swing, or even the coach telling the pitcher when so and so comes up she has a gate swing,stay low and inside..... the defense works off signs they pick up from other players also. softball is about advantages, and making use of them, If a parent is behind the plate yellin where the catcher sets up thats wrong and those types dont last long, that to me would be bush, but for players to me its agressivness not bush league

Tim

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #10

I certainly don't ever advocate any kind of physical retaliation, but the point is made that yes some coaches do consider it bush. I mean I guess its kind of like a student copying answers off of another's test because they weren't covering up their paper. We can tell people to cover up their paper, but is that the real solution? I mean if I have to stoop to stealing signals to win ball games, how meaningful are those wins? I remember a critical game our team lost in high school that the other team openly bragged about after that they were stealing our pitching signs on. Is that something to really feel good about?

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #11

It's part of the game and in the end a pitcher can tell the batter what pitch is coming and where it's going to be and the batter still needs to hit it.....

Whats next, condoning a helicopter bat back at the pitcher for plunking someone? Oops it slipped....Please.... It is an assault with something that can be construed as a weapon if someone wants to actually go and hit someone purposely. If a coach were ever found to be telling a player to actually do that he or she could be charged as well if proven.... It's never, ever part of the game and if you want to think it is, you need to look in the mirror real hard and ask yourself some questions...

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #12

bouldersdad said:

So is it bush if the batter notices the 3rd baseman shading towards short or sees the centerfiilder shift? , no one makes a connection to a pitcher if she sees the batter crowd the plate or is to far off the plate and the pitcher adjusts to her stance, or the catcher calls a pitch to counter a hitters stance or swing, or even the coach telling the pitcher when so and so comes up she has a gate swing,stay low and inside..... the defense works off signs they pick up from other players also. softball is about advantages, and making use of them, If a parent is behind the plate yellin where the catcher sets up thats wrong and those types dont last long, that to me would be bush, but for players to me its agressivness not bush league

Tim

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I agree with Tim on this because softball is a game of adjustments. Those who notice them and have the ability to take advantage of them should.

I also agree that parents yelling from behind the plate where the catcher is set up is bush league.

Finally, while I do not agree with the runner at 2nd signaling the batter but that does not mean that I am against it. I see no real advantage and I personally would rather my hitters just concrentrate on what they work on all the time and thats the release and the spin. I do not advocate throwing down and smacking a player on the head as some kind of retaliation. This falls under the catagory of its all funny until someone gets hurt. I will never give our players a sign or signal that might result in them hurting another player on purpose.

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #13

its kind of like a student copying answers off of another's test because they weren't covering up their paper.

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Not even close. What you describe is cheating, assuming they were told they couldnt copy others answers.

Just because it is a controversial issue doesnt mean is it illegal/ immoral or bsuh league.

Is it any differenet than setting up a base runner, pretending to ignore them knowing well you will throw to them on the next pitch ?

If the catcher is set up, the runner steals the signal and then motions to the batter and the pitcher hasnt releeased yet , the catcher is set up to soon.

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #14

Its part of the game. It goes on all the time in baseball, that's the reason they change their signs with a runner @ 2nd. I don't think its any different in fastpitch.

Parents yelling from the backstop is Bush. The difference they are not participants in the game.

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #15

Stealing signs has been and always will be a part of the game. As a coach, if I can give my player an advantage, within the rules, I am going to do it. I wouldn't go out of my way to try to steal signs but if they are going to be obvious about it, I don't see any reason not to take advantage. Obviously, I would expect it to be done discretely. If a runner on 2nd is jumping up and down and pointing vigoroulsy, I don't see anything wrong with sending a message. Also, if a parent behind the backstop is tipping locations, I might send a message to the batter as well. Of course, why would you not want to be discrete about it. I don't want the opponent to know that I've picked up their sign, because I don't want them to change it.

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #16

WWolff said:

Totally bush to me but that's me. We had a 12u team from east of the Ohio border do that this weekend where coach would tap her shoulder as to where catcher was set up. They were also stealing signs. Battered would look at coach giving signal and batter new change up or what ever. But I figured if we execute it still don't matter, but we didn't always execute so it was our problem. Not stealing of signs

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So the other team stole all your signals during the game? I would think they would have to be really obvious for that to happen. ;&

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #17

I don't give them but we are 1st year 12u team and tried to keep simple, but if you try you usually can pick up other teams signals as well not all that hard to do.

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #18

I love the comparisons to baseball we get on here. Obviously if its done in major league or even boys baseball, then its OK for fastpitch as well, right? Retaliations for bush league tactics are rampant in baseball, so be careful before you make that leap. I guarantee you there would be retaliation in baseball for a runner on 2nd visibly signaling the batter on pitch location, regardless of whether the catcher is setting up too early or not.

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #19

coachjwb said:

Was at a high school game the other today, watching a quality team that I highly respect, and realized that their baserunners on 2nd base were signaling the batter on where the catcher was setting up (inside or out). Do you consider that bush league or not at this level? If not, should a coach train his or her team to do this?

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As we tell our kids that attend the clinics.....

Remember softball and baseball is a game played by kids however it is orchestrated and run by adults and adults do not like to loose to kids or other adults!

 

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• May 13, 2009

• #20

Hitter said:

As we tell our kids that attend the clinics.....

Remember softball and baseball is a game played by kids however it is orchestrated and run by adults and adults do not like to loose to kids or other adults!

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Hitter you're absolutely right. I almost pulled my junior high club team off the field this past weekend because of the behavior of the parents/fans on the other team. As is our team meeting after the game was "Nice job today. Now go immediately with your parents to your cars and leave the field area."