Bush league or no?

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Member

• May 14, 2009

• #41

Originally Posted by WWolff
Totally bush to me but that's me. We had a 12u team from east of the Ohio border do that this weekend where coach would tap her shoulder as to where catcher was set up. They were also stealing signs. Battered would look at coach giving signal and batter new change up or what ever. But I figured if we execute it still don't matter, but we didn't always execute so it was our problem. Not stealing of signs

I am the coach calling pitches.... The batter would watch where the catcher set up ... and The third base coach would signal to where the cathcer was setting up... But you roll with the punches and you just adjust.... I would call one sign and do the opposite..... set up out side and throw inside. It's nothing new... I would watch mad dog players on second signal all the time telling the hitter where the catcher would set up; they would wave their hand left or right. If you are a good enough team you deal with it and make the plays period.

 

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• May 15, 2009

• #42

Here are a couple to think about....

1. Runner on 1st base gets caught off-base and is now involved in a run-down. Everyone on defense has lined-up at either 1st base or 2nd base to get their chance to try to get this runner out. The runner has gone back and forth about 4 times so far. A fielder coming off of 2nd base chases the runner back toward 1st base and then throws the ball to a fielder covering 1st base. The runner turns toward 1st base and then does an immediate turn back toward 2nd base where, lo and behold, the previous fielder from 2nd base is standing, directly in her path to 2nd base. Runner, seeing the fielder without the ball in the base path runs into the fielder, staggers, but continues toward 2nd base. She is tagged out. But wait...Obstruction on the fielder, runner is awarded 2nd base.

Was it bush for the runner to see the defensive lapse and take advantage of the rules? I say no, good thinking.

2. Runner on 2nd base. When the runner comes off of the bag at the pitch and then stops, the 2nd baseman covers 2nd base and the shortstop comes next to the runner to "push" her back to 2nd base. As the runner retreats, the SS is right on her heals, so close that she actually trips the runner one time. On a later pitch, the runner comes off of the bag, the same thing happens but this time the pitcher raises her arm to look as though she will throw the ball. The runner immediately turns toward 3rd base, of course runs into the SS who is right beside her, staggers and continues toward 3rd base where she is tagged out. But wait.....obstruction on the SS. Runner is awarded 3rd base.

Is it bush for the runner to again, take advantage of a defensive gaffe and along with knowledge of the rules, gain another base? I say no.

 

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• May 19, 2009

• #43

I don't have strong feelings on sign stealing one way or the other when it's the players doing the stealing. This past weekend we played in a tournament and had the first base coach yelling out pitch locations. She used words other than inside and outside, but it was obvious. She wasn't stealing signs - she was watching the catcher set up then yelled it out. This was during a 12U game. During our post game meeting a number of our kids asked if that was legal or not. One of our kids put it pretty well when she said "legal or not, it's not good sportsmanship". Anyway, Thank you coach.......you gave us something new to work on this week.

 

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• May 20, 2009

• #44

Wvan:

With regard to both scenarios you offered--- that's just good base running and bad defense.

With regard to scenario number 1-- that's horrible coaching. Rundowns should be executed with zero throws or 1 throw. The "lining up" thing should NEVER happen. Any coach who thinks that's the way it's supposed to be done should be banned from the sport.

 

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• May 20, 2009

• #45

I do think coaches yelling out catcher locations or pitch type is "bush league". However this so called sign stealing is for the most part a matter of picking up on the obvious. If your signs are that easy to read then they will be read by the opposing team and if their signs are not obvious you will never know. I think some of the gripes about stolen signs are just sour grapes. Is the opposing team supposed to close their eyes while you make your "secret" signs and should the opposing coach not tell his players what is coming if he knows? Have a back-up set of signs or sign indicator, don't have the catcher set up so early and you might find that opposing teams don't really steal your signs rather you give them away. This may sound crazy but if you have a good pitcher and catcher just go "random". Let the catcher set up wherever she wants and have pitcher call the pitches and location. Its alittle harder on the catcher but if you keep using the same signs I bet they quit trying to figure them out.

 

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• May 20, 2009

• #46

Had parents do this right at the fence gate in a varsity game last week. If a HS senior can't figure it out by now, they never will. Didn't help in the end...

 

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• May 20, 2009

• #47

in reference to the SS who duped the runner in a varsity game --I don't see bush league at all . runner was having a brain fart for that to occur. just happened in a tight game between large schools. Would'nt matter if it were d-4 or d-1 , in a blow out or tight game. Thats just poor baserunning. You don't rely on the opponent for critical info -period !

This whole thread is a hoot -- I visualize a 10u field, crowded with excited parents , score tied , bases loaded , 1 out . Girl strikes out , catcher makes a clean catch and the girl takes off towards 1st hoping to draw a throw from the catcher (as coached by adults) and let the winning run waltz in . As the parents hollering RUN SUZIE RUN ! In the world of Bush league kids can't hold a candle to adults. MD

 

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• Jul 6, 2009

• #48

Not to beat a dead horse but after what I witnessed this weekend I had to dig up and re-read peoples thoughts in this thread. Most of the posts here referred to players picking up the location and signaling the batter. Or parents in the stands calling out location.

I watched a hotly contested 16U game late yesterday at GAPSS in which the pitching coach for one team lterally sat on his bucket when his team was hitting and shouted out pitch location to his batters on evey pitch. Not sure how much it helped but thought that was about as bush as it gets.

Unfortunatley, the pitcher can't plant one in the ribs of the guy sitting behind the fence on the bucket.

 

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Member

• Jul 6, 2009

• #49

1. catcher must first SIGNAL the location using fingers or hand --and with glove preventing anyone from seeing it (perhaps a runner at second is the exception, but in this case there can be a different signal).

2. catcher must move target to that location at the last possible moment.

3. if this is done correctly, the coach trying to tip off hitters will have only a split second to do so and there isn't a hitter in the world who is capable of making that adjustment without a mental breakdown.

So do your job correctly and you won't have to worry about the bush leaguers.

 

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• Jul 6, 2009

• #50

I agree with the above, but it still doesn't excuse the bush league nonsense. It is two different issues. One is the defense doing things right and the other is the offense practicing bush league nonsense.

Our sport is overrun by dads who must have never played a day of baseball or learned anything if they did play.

 

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• Jul 6, 2009

• #51

Truth - as you mentioned, I can't say that I think it was helping the hitters a whole lot. The opposing catcher looked to be doing a good job at what you stated above she should be doing and she seemed oblivious to the goof on the bucket. I just thought it was about as bush as it gets.

Joe - couldn't agree more.

 

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• Jul 6, 2009

• #52

coachjwb said:

Was at a high school game the other today, watching a quality team that I highly respect, and realized that their baserunners on 2nd base were signaling the batter on where the catcher was setting up (inside or out). Do you consider that bush league or not at this level? If not, should a coach train his or her team to do this?

Click to expand...

Been going on In the Big Leagues forever.... Thats Why Catchers need to wait as long as possible to set up... However... the PLAYERs doing it and the Coaches doing it , may be 2 different things.

 

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• Jul 6, 2009

• #53

It's a good thing some of these coaches/players didn't play against any team I ever played on. It's amazing to me that in baseball, it is perfectly normal for a batter to get plunked by a 90+ fastball for somebody hitting one out before he came up to bat, but in fastpitch, we have coaches/players/parents yelling out location.

If a coach was sitting on a bucket, and was yelling out location, etc during a baseball game, I would have thrown a fastball in the middle of his batter's back in a second. For some pitchers, the pitch may have travelled to a little higher location than the back.

Thankfully, that is not the case in fastpitch, but I'm sure some coaches or dads are telling their daughters to plunk a girl on purpose if something like that goes on.

 

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• Jul 6, 2009

• #54

I started this thread and honestly had mixed feelings about whether it was OK for players to do this or not, and I'm still not sure. However, I do think adult coaches doing it, training their players to do it, or worst of all having spectators outside the field of play doing this are all unacceptable. I guess I say this from having watched so many baseball games over the years and how they define "bush". I do think MLB gets a little carried away at time with the "macho" thing and retaliations, but it just strikes me that I don't want to win games as a result of tactics like this.

 

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• Jul 6, 2009

• #55

It isnt bush league because if you at least some skill as a coach you can deal with it quite easily and in fact take well advantage of it. Tipping locations goes down as another one of the great ideas that should work but never does at least rarely does. A hitter looking outside get an inside pitch one time and they wont pay any attention to it anyway. If you have ever actually been a hitter you know that and are probably just humoring the effort. Now if you are either greatly inexperienced or perhaps low in the IQ it can and is effective if you just let it happen and tip it early.
Now if you can steal a drop versus a rise that is worth knowing.
I am always amazed at how some get mad when coaches steal their signals. If you use an indicator and have fake signals you are at least to some extent acknowleding that stealing signals is part of the game. Other wise you would just have one signal for the call.
If you are a coach and touch the belt for bunts you are probably a target for getting your signs stolen and you should never be angry about it if you are that lame.

 

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• Jul 7, 2009

• #56

I guess I am a purist to some extent. I do not try to steal signs or pitches. I have other things to pay attention to during the game. I also do not try to "manage the clock" to deny a team another at bat. I am not going to stand in the box or duggout staring at a watch and plan delay (or speed up) strategies. I prefer a win or lose on the field.

 

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• Jul 7, 2009

• #57

Johnies
I'm with you

 

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• Jul 7, 2009

• #58

Johnnies I second that.

 

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• Jul 7, 2009

• #59

If the other coach is smart enough, and has time enough, to steal my team's signals, he's welcome to them. I've got other things to worry about, like players executing. Other than that, I'm with johnnies.