Bretman signal - light the sky

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Here are two interesting cases from our Saturday games. What was the correct ruling?

First situation:

No.8 batter hits safely in the 3rd inning and a pinch runner enters the game. Batter No. 8 reenters the game and plays the field in the 4th and 5th innings, but does not officially report back into the lineup.

When No. 8 batter comes to the plate in the bottom of the 5th and takes first pitch, opposing coach challenges her as batting illegally.

What is the correct resolution of the at-bat?


Second situation:

One out - runner on first.
Batter swings and misses at third strike, then runs to first. (All of us bleacher bums concur that the pitch hit the dirt, and was scooped up by the catcher, so the ball did touch the ground.)

Catcher throws the ball to first, and it hits the batter-runner in the back and bounces into right field. Batter-runner reaches first. Runner who had occupied first had broken for second, and proceeds to third on the loose ball.

In discussing the resolution, the plate umpire indicates he believed the third strike was caught cleanly by the catcher.

Who goes where?

 

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I am fairly sure that if 1st base is occupied the dropped third strike rule isn't in effect. So basically it does not matter, the batter is out.

 

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Per new rule interpretation, second scenario results in both batter and runner who occupied first are out.

First is simply the original player is reinstated - no penalty. If you wait until the at bat is complete then it is different!

 

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High school games, I assume (answers could be different for other rule sets).

1) Batter who re-entered (again, an assumption- that she had re-entry rights and entered in the same spot in the batting order) is an unreported substitute, not an illegal player. They are two totally different things, with different penalties.

Penalty for an unreported sub in high school play: On the first offense, a team warning is issued. The results of any play stand. On a subsequent offense by the same team, both the player and the head coach are restricted to the bench.

2) With less than two outs and first base occupied, batter is out regardless of if the third strike was caught or not.

The rules specifically say that a batter running on the third strike- even if not entitled to- is not in and of itself interference.

The only way this is interference is if the throw from the catcher was part of an effort to retire a runner already on base. It doesn't sound like it was in this case. Live ball, play on. Runner from first gets whatever base she gets.

 

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How can you argue with Bretman?

 

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I'm always open to being told I'm wrong...if you can back up your ruling with an actual rule, case play or interpretation!

 

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Answer this one then...
Pitcher is off the rubber, assumably taking a sign from the catcher. Steps onto the rubber, pause for 2-3 seconds, then delivers the pitch.

Question...is this considered an illegal pitch? Or...how should this be interpretted?

I will let others way in first...

 

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Doesn't matter what the pitcher did before she stepped on the pitcher's plate. As long as she pauses with the hands separated once she does step on the plate, she has met the requirement of the rule.

If she didn't pause once stepping on the plate, but just rolled right through with the pitch, that is a quick pitch. A quick pitch is not an illegal pitch. It is a "no pitch"- the ball is immediately dead and all subsequent action is cancelled.

 

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Doesn't matter what the pitcher did before she stepped on the pitcher's plate. As long as she pauses with the hands separated once she does step on the plate, she has met the requirement of the rule.

If she didn't pause once stepping on the plate, but just rolled right through with the pitch, that is a quick pitch. A quick pitch is not an illegal pitch. It is a "no pitch"- the ball is immediately dead and all subsequent action is cancelled.

Bretman, I learn something evertime I read ur posts. I always thought the pitcher had to be on the rubber when she was taking her signal

 

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Here is how things resolved in the game.

Situation 1
Batter No. 8 was called out. There was some debate on if her substitute should then assume her count (with the out standing) but ultimately, the No. 9 batter came to the plate.

Based on my reading, this was a missed call - even if the opposing coach would have waited to challenge the batter at the end of her at-bat.


Situation 2
The batter-runner was called out, and the runner originally occupying 1st base (who had reached 3rd) was returned to 2nd base.
Sounds like another missed call to me.

Bretman - since the catcher's throw to 1st hit the batter runner (who was legally in the running lane) does the runner have the right to advance without penalty? A throw to 2nd would be more clean-cut, but I can see a throw to 1st being a legitimate pick-off or rundown attempt.

 

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Doesn't matter what the pitcher did before she stepped on the pitcher's plate. As long as she pauses with the hands separated once she does step on the plate, she has met the requirement of the rule.

If she didn't pause once stepping on the plate, but just rolled right through with the pitch, that is a quick pitch. A quick pitch is not an illegal pitch. It is a "no pitch"- the ball is immediately dead and all subsequent action is cancelled.

Well thats the argument I had with the 2 umpires in my game. They said my pitcher was taking the signs off the rubber. I told them they were making an assumption (umpire said he was watching her eyes and knew she was taking signs), I nearly laughed him off the field!! I told them the rule book stated all she had to do was pause on the rubber and appear to take a sign and she was perfectly legal.
It became more of a frolic when the opposing teams coach started questioning it as well, and I once again stated she was perfectly legal..The coaches response was "he was just repeating what the umpires had told him earlier in the game that she was illegal!!" So now we have umpires discussing interpretations of rules with the coaches!!

 

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Here is how things resolved in the game.

Situation 1
Batter No. 8 was called out. There was some debate on if her substitute should then assume her count (with the out standing) but ultimately, the No. 9 batter came to the plate.

Based on my reading, this was a missed call - even if the opposing coach would have waited to challenge the batter at the end of her at-bat.


Situation 2
The batter-runner was called out, and the runner originally occupying 1st base (who had reached 3rd) was returned to 2nd base.
Sounds like another missed call to me.

Bretman - since the catcher's throw to 1st hit the batter runner (who was legally in the running lane) does the runner have the right to advance without penalty? A throw to 2nd would be more clean-cut, but I can see a throw to 1st being a legitimate pick-off or rundown attempt.

1) In high school softball, an out is never accessed for an unreported sub. It seems like they were mixing up the illegal player rule- something altogether different. An illegal player is one who is entered in a spot in the batting order she is not entitled to, or a player who has no eligibility being entered into the game, or an improper courtesy runner. I take it that this batter was none of those.

This is a very commonly misunderstood and misapplied rule!

2) If the throw down to first was an attempt to put out a runner- as on a pick-off of R1- then this would be interference. But if R1 was off with the pitch and on her way to second base, and the throw was to first, it's not interference. To get an additional out, the retired batter must actually interfere with the defense's play on an active runner.

This is another very commonly misunderstood and misapplied rule!

 

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Well thats the argument I had with the 2 umpires in my game. They said my pitcher was taking the signs off the rubber. I told them they were making an assumption (umpire said he was watching her eyes and knew she was taking signs), I nearly laughed him off the field!! I told them the rule book stated all she had to do was pause on the rubber and appear to take a sign and she was perfectly legal.
It became more of a frolic when the opposing teams coach started questioning it as well, and I once again stated she was perfectly legal..The coaches response was "he was just repeating what the umpires had told him earlier in the game that she was illegal!!" So now we have umpires discussing interpretations of rules with the coaches!!

It sounds like you have it right, Lady Knights.

The pitcher can take her sign from anywhere she wants- before stepping on the rubber, from the bench, from the stands or from the hot dog vendor in the concession stand! The only requirement is that once she does step on the rubber, she must pause to take, or simulate taking, a sign from the catcher. All this rule is really intended to do is to force the pitcher to pause once she engages the rubber to prevent a quick pitch.

Now I'm going to sound like a broken record...This is another very commonly misunderstood and misapplied rule! It is often misinterpreted to mean that the pitcher can take a sign ONLY from the catcher and ONLY after engaging the pitcher's plate. That simply isn't how the rule is written or how it is interpreted.

 

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Saw this one in the Michigan / Purdue game. Homeplate Ump calls illegal pitch during the delivery and stands up. Pitcher continues with the pitch which hits the batter. Batter is awarded first base. Was this correct ? Just curious.

 

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Not really a rule issue, but I have been told that if you call an illegal pitch and it's delivered you don't want to stand up! Reason is two-fold. One, you still must call the pitch. Standing up changes your view of the strike zone. Second, when the players hear "Illegal Pitch" they sometimes might give up on the play. If you're just standing straight up behind the catcher- and she is distracted and let's it go by- there is a greater chance that the pitch will hit you!

But as far as the rule...this is correct. If an illegal pitch results in a hit batter, the batter is awarded first base. Additionally, the illegal pitch penalty is enforced for any runners already on base- they are awarded one base.

 

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Doesn't matter what the pitcher did before she stepped on the pitcher's plate. As long as she pauses with the hands separated once she does step on the plate, she has met the requirement of the rule.

If she didn't pause once stepping on the plate, but just rolled right through with the pitch, that is a quick pitch. A quick pitch is not an illegal pitch. It is a "no pitch"- the ball is immediately dead and all subsequent action is cancelled.

Is it really that cut and dried? I can see the logic of calling a "no pitch", instead of an illegal pitch, if the pitcher does it in an attempt of a quick return of the ball before the batter is ready. Otherwise, isn't it an illegal pitch for being an infraction of that section (ASA) or article (NFHS)?

 

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Good question. I suppose you could split hairs on the rule and conclude that if the pitcher steps on the rubber and rolls right through without pausing- but the batter was in position and ready- that it does not meet the verbatim definition of a quick pitch (one designed to catch the batter off-balance or not ready).

One way I have heard this explained to practically apply the rule in real-world situations: On a normal pitch with a legal delivery, the batter is expecting the pitcher to pause and get or simulate a signal. If the pitcher doesn't pause, that in itself can disrupt the batter's timing and that does meet the definition of catching the batter "not ready". Thus it is always regarded as a quick pitch.

That approach has worked for me in the past. But that is an interesting enough question that I'll dig around to see if there is any documentation or interpretation that might allow an illegal pitch to be called under certain circumstances.