Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Is this a legal motion?

[default]

Wow Bretman, I'm really surprised on your opinion of this pitcher. Lets get off the crow hop definition for a minute because that is technically not what she is doing.

Correct. She is not "technically" crow hopping, or even "non-technically", because what she's doing does not meet the rule book definition or standard interpretation of a crow hop.

A crow hop is when the pitcher STARTS THE PITCH with the pivot foot in front of, and not in contact with, the rubber. The pitch starts when the hands separate. Whatever issue we have with the pivot foot is happening well after the hands have separated.

So, we can disregard that argument.

What makes the pitches illegal is leaping. The pitcher cannot have both feet off the ground at the same time. If you look at the slow motion that is exactly what she is doing. In real time you can tell she is doing it by the pivot foot bouncing a foot in front of the rubber. Check out this video, it is an exact copy of what this pitcher is doing and explains why it is an illegal pitch.http://www.dartfish.tv/WebPresenter/Player.aspx?CR=p2655c1342m9778

In that NFHS video it's pretty obvious the pivot foot has left the ground. There is air under the foot and you can see it in real time, without slow motion.

In the YouTube video, I've played it over and over in slow motion, stopping it frame by frame. At no point do I see the pivot foot CONCLUSIVELY not in contact with the ground.

But I'm a person that can be convinced if somebody can show me otherwise. YouTube videos are kind of crappy to work with- you can pause them, you can back them up and you can toggle the pause button rapidly on and off to simulate slow motion and that is about it.

All I'll ask anyone to do is to find that magic frame where the pivot foot is inconclusively off the ground, capture that screen shot, then post it here.

As far as the pivot foot "bounce" you're seeing, there can be many causes for this other than leaping. The pitcher's hips are closing explosively. The foot just happens to be attached to the legs and hips. It can bounce, twist or turn as a reaction to the hips/legs turning. That's not illegal.

 

[default]

I guess I'll beat the nearly dead horse some more which will no doubt get me just as far as it would if it happened while I was coaching a game with her pitching and Bretman was the ump.

It seems CLEAR to me she is replanting before delivering the pitch. Further, both feet are off the ground during the replant. So no matter if it is defined as a crow hop or a leap, it's still illegal. (I'd call it a leaping crow hop!) She is pitching from 39 feet. (or less) You (at least I can heh heh) can see she is driving off the newly replanted spot with her pivot foot. It's not the result of a legal drag, it's the result of an illegal replant. When dragging, the pivot foot is being dragged along by the rest of the body and has long since done all the driving off the rubber it's going to do, not the case here where she is driving off the pivot foot.

If all we are supposed to look at is what happens before the hands separate, then let's take it to an extreme. In theory the pitcher could shuffle along all she wants right up to the plate as long as she keeps the pivot foot on the ground after the hands are separated.

Even so, it wouldn't surprise me few umpires would call it, but I am sure it has been called by some. I would definitely call it illegal if I was the field ump, for all the reasons already stated.

 

[default]

Here she is as the arm is just coming past the hip on the forward revolution.

Pivot foot appears to be touching the ground.

Here the arm is rotated approximately 90 degrees forward.

Pivot foot still looks to be touching the ground.

The arm has gone just past 180 degrees. At this point, the stride foot is contacting the ground. Once the stride foot lands, the pivot foot can legally raise or leave the ground.

But it STILL looks to be contacting it!

To paraphrase the old Wendy's commercial...Where's the leap?

 

[default]

A crow hop is when the pitcher STARTS THE PITCH with the pivot foot in front of, and not in contact with, the rubber. The pitch starts when the hands separate. Whatever issue we have with the pivot foot is happening well after the hands have separated.

The first time I have ever heard of while the hands are still together is today. I had always heard when the hands seperate the pitch must be delivered or step back off the rubber. Seperating the hands is starting the pitch...So under this new interpretation of your crow hop or leap the hands must still be together....lets try this,

The pitcher like her seperates the hands first, drives 5 ft off the rubber while the bottom of her pivot drages along the ground. Her forward motion stops, she is now in the K postion, her pivot foot is cleats down and flat on the ground. Drive foot is almost waist high in the air, arms are in K postion. she is now at 35ft' from home, she then pushes or falls forward onto her drive leg and once it hits the ground she delivers the ball... And you say this would not be a leap, replant or crow hop. How do you figure.

 

[default]

how do you get the picture from the video.... I have it stopped with both of her feet in the air

 

[default]

Here is how to take a screen shot. I for some reason dont have microsoft paint, so I cant do it.
http://www.wikihow.com/Take-a-Screenshot-in-Microsoft-Windows

 

[default]

As far as the pivot foot "bounce" you're seeing, there can be many causes for this other than leaping. The pitcher's hips are closing explosively. The foot just happens to be attached to the legs and hips. It can bounce, twist or turn as a reaction to the hips/legs turning. That's not illegal.

When something bounces, it is off the ground. You can see in the dirt that her drive foot starts on the rubber, leaves the ground, and lands in the same divot that she created by leaping every time. If she was pitching legally, there would be a banana shaped line (or some resemblance of) that starts at the rubber and continues UNBROKEN to the vicinity of her other foot. Not 2 dots and a line. Pitchers are often taught to "read the dirt" to correct faulty mechanics. I must admit that I am not as well versed in the rules and regulations of the various sanctions as you are. Could you please post where and what sanction allows both feet to be off the ground at the same time when it is deemed to be a function of the hips/legs turning?

 

[default]

The first time I have ever heard of while the hands are still together is today. I had always heard when the hands seperate the pitch must be delivered or step back off the rubber. Seperating the hands is starting the pitch...So under this new interpretation of your crow hop or leap the hands must still be together....lets try this,

The pitcher like her seperates the hands first, drives 5 ft off the rubber while the bottom of her pivot drages along the ground. Her forward motion stops, she is now in the K postion, her pivot foot is cleats down and flat on the ground. Drive foot is almost waist high in the air, arms are in K postion. she is now at 35ft' from home, she then pushes or falls forward onto her drive leg and once it hits the ground she delivers the ball... And you say this would not be a leap, replant or crow hop. How do you figure.

The guideline about the hands being together/separated was in the high school rule book as a Point of Emphasis from 2004-2009. It has also been published on the NFHS website.

This same interpretation is in the ASA rule book (Rules Supplement #40) and has been there at least a decade.

It's not "new" and it's not "my" interpretation. It is the interpretation put forth by those two sanctioning bodies.

On the hypothetical pitching motion you describe...First, why don't you try doing that yourself and see what happens. It's probably physically impossible (I'm trying to picture if you'd be more likely to fall on your butt or your face before getting the pitch off). And it probably is impossible to do while maintaining all the other requirements of a legal delivery, like not stopping or restarting the arm rotation or delivering the ball with anything but one continuous motion.

Assuming a pitcher could pull off that delivery...It wouldn't be a leap because it doesn't meet the definition of a leap (both feet airbourne at the same time) and it wouldn't be a crow hop (pitcher originated the pitch from the rubber, after the hands separated). You might call it a replant, but the word "replant" doesn't even appear anywhere in the pitching rules, so which rule would you say is being broken?

 

[default]

I must admit that I am not as well versed in the rules and regulations of the various sanctions as you are. Could you please post where and what sanction allows both feet to be off the ground at the same time when it is deemed to be a function of the hips/legs turning?

Nowhere have I posted that it is legal to have both feet airbourne. It's not. That's a leap and that's a pretty basic rule- you can't do that (unless you're playing Men's fastpitch).

What I said was that in the video I do not see CONCLUSIVELY where the pitcher has both feet airbourne at the same time.

I've gone to the effort of posting individual frame shots of this pitcher's delivery and they do not I show me both feet being in the air. Anyone else is welcome to do the same and show differently.

 

[default]

The guideline about the hands being together/separated was in the high school rule book as a Point of Emphasis from 2004-2009. It has also been published on the NFHS website.

This same interpretation is in the ASA rule book (Rules Supplement #40) and has been there at least a decade.

It's not "new" and it's not "my" interpretation. It is the interpretation put forth by those two sanctioning bodies.

On the hypothetical pitching motion you describe...First, why don't you try doing that yourself and see what happens. It's probably physically impossible (I'm trying to picture if you'd be more likely to fall on your butt or your face before getting the pitch off). And it probably is impossible to do while maintaining all the other requirements of a legal delivery, like not stopping or restarting the arm rotation or delivering the ball with anything but one continuous motion.

Assuming a pitcher could pull off that delivery...It wouldn't be a leap because it doesn't meet the definition of a leap (both feet airbourne at the same time) and it wouldn't be a crow hop (pitcher originated the pitch from the rubber, after the hands separated). You might call it a replant, but the word "replant" doesn't even appear anywhere in the pitching rules, so which rule would you say is being broken?

it is not hard at all to do it, just push off the rubber hand motion starts later very simple to do. Why would it not be a replant. Weight is on pivot foot, then you would be pushing off / falling forward from another place other then the pitching rubber.

 

[default]

I am goint to have to break out the rule books now, and see if i can find what i mean

 

[default]

I'll try one more from another angle...

0 degrees rotation.

90 degrees rotation.

180 degrees rotation.

In any of these, can you say for 100% certain that the pivot foot is or isn't touching the ground?

 

[default]

it is not hard at all to do it, just push off the rubber hand motion starts later very simple to do. Why would it not be a replant. Weight is on pivot foot, then you would be pushing off / falling forward from another place other then the pitching rubber.

People get hung up on the term "replant". That word does not appear in the pitching rules!

(I'm talking about the actual rules. The word is in the interpretive literature and is used when describing a crow hop that occurs BEFORE the hands separate.)

I am goint to have to break out the rule books now, and see if i can find what i mean

What we both probably should do is get some sleep!

 

[default]

People get hung up on the term "replant". That word does not appear in the pitching rules!

(I'm talking about the actual rules. The word is in the interpretive literature and is used when describing a crow hop that occurs BEFORE the hands separate.)



What we both probably should do is get some sleep!

Oh please......so the word replant is something the softball community has come up with to discribe what a pitcher that hops off of the plate to start NEW pitching location is doing. Your version of what we call the "replant" is covered in the rule book. And how in the world can you put 3 pics up and make a case with that....LOL now that's just plan funny That would be like watching a robbery recorded on a store camera and using 2 still pics from it. One of the robber coming into the store and one of them leaving, and saying "see I told you he didn't do it".

 

[default]

The thing that strikes me most about the video is that the video was even posted. The girl can pitch. Someones's trying to promote her, to get her seen. Everything should be spot on for review. That step - that's a big one. Most videos you watch are edited to take out any pitch that isn't "perfect".

 

[default]

Due to the slow frame rate of You Tube, the fame times are not very accurate, so you must look at several frames in the general area. The part to focus on is the first slow motion area which begins at about :27, and aside from the poor mechanics, this pitcher becomes illegal at around :38.

She strides fine, but her instructor has failed to teach her proper weight transfer. Unfortunately, her weight is distributed too much onto her drag foot, and combined with flawed timing of her arm circle, her pivot (drag) foot stops (replants, if you will) while she's at the "K" position.

In watching this slow motion section, both feet are definitely in the air (the leap) and her pivot foot replants at about 12" - 14" in front of the pitching rubber, with stride still plainly off the ground. This creates a second starting point as defined in the NFHS demonstration video. So there are actually two infractions happening - a "leap" and a "replant". As stated, this pitching motion is epidemic in Ohio.

This video should be sent to NFHS as a demonstration video.

The only caveat is that to see it in "real time" you would have to rely on the physical evidence; body position, dirt markings, etc. But the fact it is an illegal pitch still remains.

 

[default]

Oh please......so the word replant is something the softball community has come up with to discribe what a pitcher that hops off of the plate to start NEW pitching location is doing. Your version of what we call the "replant" is covered in the rule book. And how in the world can you put 3 pics up and make a case with that....LOL now that's just plan funny That would be like watching a robbery recorded on a store camera and using 2 still pics from it. One of the robber coming into the store and one of them leaving, and saying "see I told you he didn't do it".

All I'll ask is that you, or anyone else, post the rule/rule number that uses the word "replant". If you can't do that, post the rule/rule number that you think is being violated.

The three still shots I posted (which is about the best you can get with a YouTube video) cover a period of time lasting less than one-tenth of a second. That means there is less than .050 seconds elapsing between each picture.

If one picture shows the foot touching the ground and the next shows it still touching the ground .050 seconds later, is it not logical to assume that the foot never left the ground?

If you had a video of an accused robber entering a bank, then exiting .050 seconds later, I be comfortable in saying, "He didn't do it"!

 

[default]

Airtime

Start of the pitch

Near release point of the pitch.

The first image may be inconclusive in itself, but you can also go by the lack of tracks in the dirt as has been mentioned and the lack of dust flying along the foot. Those items are always evident in a dragging legal pitch.

To me what is telling is the second two images. You can clearly see where she starts on the rubber, and where she is driving/releasing the pitch. To me there is no question this is a new starting point ahead of the rubber.

NFHS Rule 6, Sec1, Art 2 c "Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal." IE: What most of us call a "replant"

In a legal drag, the foot would be dragging, not driving as this foot is doing. You can see the difference here. (Full video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDwbrOYu_9k&feature=related )

If you watch the last video for a little, you can clearly see the drag marks in the dirt. Not so with the first video.

 

[default]

I'd be interested to know what exactly you think is illegal here.

The pivot foot can legally drag away from the plate. The rules don't say that after dragging away, the pivot can't turn or has to face any certain direction.

That little "twist" you see from the pivot foot is NOT illegal as described in either the ASA or NFHS pitching guidelines. Her pivot foot movement is the EFFECT to her hips turning not the CAUSE of her hips turning.

The pitcher is NOT creating a new starting point (impetus) for the pitch or bringing the pivot foot forward ahead of the stride foot (crow hop) before delivering the pitch.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit for this not to be called because she isn't doing anything illegal.

Typical response of someone who doesnt know the rule. First off that little skip at the bottom of her movement IS illegal, she is slightly replanting. Plus she has air between her foot and the ground.

 

[default]

She's not dragging her pivot foot. In order to drag her foot it would have to remain in contact with the ground throughout her pitching motion. She's pushing off of the plate, her foot is going airbourne, she's replanting it to create a NEW starting point. Totally illegal.

Bingo, I can`t believe others can not see this. It has become so common in Ohio , people tend to think this is an acceptable motion.