Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Is this a legal motion?

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If you watch at exactly :30, 1:10 and 2:30 it is in slow motion for those of you (and umps) who dont see what we are talking about. If you can not see air under her foot, thank God you are not an ump. Besides even if she never looses contact with the ground, she is still replanting, meaning she is starting from a point other than the pitchers plate.( But she is leaving the ground)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkqrft0oShw&feature=related

Here are the definitions
http://www.pitchsoftball.com/Page3.html
) A CROW HOP is not the pitcher's failure to drag the push-off foot along the ground. A crow hop is, as the name implies, a forward hop or step off the pitching rubber by the pivot/push-off foot (typically moving it forward a foot or more) to "replant" it and use it for a second push-off point. It is not permitted in girls/womens softball.

In their rulebooks, the USSSA, ASA, etc. offer essentially the same definitions for "crow hopping":

ASA - "A crow hop is defined as the act of a pitcher who steps, hops, or drags off the
Front of the pitcher's plate, replants the pivot foot, establishing a second impetus
(or starting point), pushes off from the newly-established starting point and
and completes the delivery."
And the ASA rulebook also states:
"Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal."

USSSA - "A crow hop is the replanting of the pivot foot prior to delivery of the pitch."
Additionally, under USSSA Pitching Rules:
"Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal.
NOTE 1: It is not a step if the pitcher slides (her) foot in any direction on the pitcher's plate,
provided contact is maintained.
NOTE 2: Techniques such as the "crow hop" and "the leap" are illegal."

Notice it also says,""Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal."
This means even if she never leaves the ground, a replant is still illegal.









2) LEAPING can be caused by a failure to "drag" the pivot/push-off foot. Leaping, in fast pitch softball, is the act of having both feet off the ground at the same time (as shown in the photo on the right).









Therefore, the pivot/push-off foot usually is dragged along the ground until the stride foot lands (leap-with-drag pitchers) , or remains in contact with the pitching rubber (for some stepping-style pitchers).





Again, here are the more official definitions:

ASA -
"LEAPING. (Fast Pitch only) An act by the pitcher which causes the pitcher to be airborne
on the initial move and move from the pitcher's plate.

"Additionally, under the ASA Rulebook Pitching Regulations for Fast Pitch Softball:
"Pushing off and dragging the pivot foot in contact with the ground is required. If a hole has been created, the pivot foot may drag no higher than the level plane of the ground."

USSSA -
"A LEAP is when both feet are airborne."

Further, the USSSA's Pitching rules state:
"The pivot foot may remain in contact with or may push off and drag away from, the pitching plate prior to the front foot touching the ground, as long as the pivot foot remains in contact with the ground."

http://www.pitchsoftball.com/Page3.html

 

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All I'll ask is that you, or anyone else, post the rule/rule number that uses the word "replant". If you can't do that, post the rule/rule number that you think is being violated.

The three still shots I posted (which is about the best you can get with a YouTube video) cover a period of time lasting less than one-tenth of a second. That means there is less than .050 seconds elapsing between each picture.

If one picture shows the foot touching the ground and the next shows it still touching the ground .050 seconds later, is it not logical to assume that the foot never left the ground?

If you had a video of an accused robber entering a bank, then exiting .050 seconds later, I be comfortable in saying, "He didn't do it"!

I am truely sorry you can not see her airborne, it is very obvious to me. However lets say her foot never leaves the ground, she is still replanting, meaning she is getting a second pushoff. I posted the rules from ASA and USSSA, and the word replanting does appear.

 

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A.S.A "Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal."

Thats the one rule I was refering to. By keeping her cleats down so her weight can be on her foot makes it illegal. If her foot was turned over were weight can't be placed on her foot then she would'nt be illegal or at least not as noticable

 

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I'll try one more from another angle...

0 degrees rotation.

90 degrees rotation.

180 degrees rotation.

In any of these, can you say for 100% certain that the pivot foot is or isn't touching the ground?

Absolutely. At the 90 degree rotation. Her toe does not meet her shadow, it is therefore off the ground. It may seem small in the picture, but in the video it is even more apparent. I have to say that I am really shocked and disappointed that an umpire held in high regard cannot even discern that she is at least "more than likely" off the ground with both feet. Not to pick on you personally, but this is a great example of how some umpires will either disregard the rules or just not able to comprehend what they are looking at. A divot in front of the pitchers mound, and another divot a foot in front of that without any marks connecting the two is a leap. Period. There is no other explanation. If you would not call this girl on an illegal leap, I cannot imagine that you would ever be able to call anyone on it. I would venture a guess that this kid gets away with it more often than not, it is still not right, and it is not fair to girls that stick to the rules to pitch the right way. This is a drill to correct the leaping problem. I can tell you from the videos of that girl pitching that she would absolutely not be able to move that towel even a fraction of an inch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U85vPVLBKd4

The flies are starting to gather around this poor horse, and everytime I whack it, they just get stirred up. I'm going to have to politely agree to disagree with you and walk back to my dugout shaking my head. ;&

By the way Bretman, You gotta get more sleep, you were posting until 4:30 am and back at it by noon...I'm impressed!

 

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ASA - "A crow hop is defined as the act of a pitcher who steps, hops, or drags off the front of the pitcher's plate, replants the pivot foot, establishing a second impetus (or starting point), pushes off from the newly-established starting point and and completes the delivery."

You're doing what many people do when grabbing pits and pieces of the rule book to justify a point they don't understand. It helps if you read ALL of the interpretations, not just ones you think might prove your point.

ASA further defines the crow hop in Rules Supplement #40. Why didn't you quote that? Maybe because it goes against what you're saying.


R/S #40: A CROW HOP is defined as a replant of the pivot foot prior to

​

​

delivering the pitch. This can be done by (1) sliding the foot in
front, but not in contact with, the pitcher’s plate; (2) lifting the pivot
foot and stepping forward; or (3) jumping forward from the pitcher’s
plate with the pivot foot prior to starting the pitch. Umpires should
look at the location of the pivot foot when the hands separate, the
start of the pitch. If the pivot foot is off and in front of the pitcher’s
plate before the hands separate, this would be a crow hop and
an illegal pitch should be called.​

It can't be any more plain than that. A crow hop is clearly defined as something that happens before the start of the pitch.​

The start of the pitch is defined as when the hands separate after the required touch.​

The pitcher's pushoff refers to where the pivot foot pushes away at the "start of the pitch".​

The pitcher's delivery refers to her entire pitching motion, not to the single point where the ball is released from the hand. The delivery begins at the defined "start of the pitch".​

Since the word "replant" is used ONLY in the context of a term to define a crow hop- nothing else- you can't just randomly use the word out of context and try to apply it to any other pitching rule or requirement.​

Put it all together:​

Is this pitcher separating her hands (ie: starting the pitch) before or after the pivot foot leaves the pitcher's plate? Before, so by definition it can't be a crow hop.​

Is this pitcher leaping?​

Nowhere have I said she definitely is or isn't. What I've said is that from the perspective of the video, and due to the quality of the video, it is not 100% certain one way or the other. A couple of people have said they see it, a couple of others have said it's inconclusive.​

If an infraction is so brief, lasting mere fractions of a second, and so tiny, with the foot maybe one inch or less off the ground, if that, and so difficult to detect that it takes multiple slow-motion replays and captured screen shoots to pick up, an umpire shouldn't be calling it. Umpires are told not to call a violation unless they are 100% CERTAIN they have seen it. To me, there isn't enough in that video to convince me 100% that the both feet are airbourne at the same time.​

​

 

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NFHS 2010

Rule 2, Sec 16 "A crow hop is the replant of the pivot foot prior to delivering the pitch."

Rule 6 Sec 1 Art 2 c "Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal."

Notes 2 "Techniques such as the "crow hop" and "the leap" are illegal. (See 2-16 ; 2-33) "

NFHS rules do not talk about looking for the location of the pivot foot at hands separation, just before the delivery of the pitch. Nowhere does it say anything about once the hands separate does that constitute delivery of the pitch, merely the START of the pitch.

Regarding the ASA rules, I think you read too much into the underlined section you quoted above as excluding looking any other time. The first line of the definition states a replant before delivering the pitch. The delivery and the start of the pitch are not the same thing.

 

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Ok i need someone to bring up a video camera, record me pitching by seperating my hands while on the rubber, big push off while dragging pivot foot, stop while in the K postion and then fall / push off again to deliever the pitch. Then we need to send this to all sanctions and ask them if by the rules is this ok, and if not what would it be called...

 

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Umpires should look at the location of the pivot foot when the hands separate, the start of the pitch. If the pivot foot is off and in front of the pitcher’s plate before the hands separate, this would be a crow hop and an illegal pitch should be called.

What if the pivot foot was never on the rubber say 2" to 6" infront of it, before hands even came together, and at the same spot when hands seperate, you can't be called for a leap or crow hop when the foot has not yet moved, can you?

 

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Bingo, I can`t believe others can not see this. It has become so common in Ohio , people tend to think this is an acceptable motion.

I can see it Bretman must be an engineer in real life. Can't tie shoes unless it's spelled out in a manual. But after reading the manual, will tie them perfectly:lmao: I will fall back on the line from "A Few Good Men", when they asked the witness where the mess hall was in their manual, and he said, "it's not there." They just follow the line to chow. Evidently some of us would end up in the infurmory wondering why we were starving to death, that is if it was written some where on how to the there!

 

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NFHS rules do not talk about looking for the location of the pivot foot at hands separation, just before the delivery of the pitch. Nowhere does it say anything about once the hands separate does that constitute delivery of the pitch, merely the START of the pitch.

Regarding the ASA rules, I think you read too much into the underlined section you quoted above as excluding looking any other time. The first line of the definition states a replant before delivering the pitch. The delivery and the start of the pitch are not the same thing.

Did you even bother looking at the NFHS instructional videos that were posted in this thread? Have you ever read the NFHS "Points of Emphasis" that have been published in their rule book and on their website? If you did, you would see that they give the exact same interpretations as the highlighted part of the ASA Rules Supplement.

No, the "delivery" and the "start of the pitch" are not the same thing. Never said they were. The start of the pitch is a single point in time when the pitcher separates her hands. The delivery is the entire pitching motion the pitcher employs following the start of the pitch.

The reason I pointed this out is that some people seem to confuse "the delivery" as meaning "the release point" or "the moment when the ball leaves the pitcher's hand". If a person is reading it that way, I can see how they might be confused by the interpretations.

I'm not reading more into the ASA Rules Supplement than what is printed. I'm reading exactly what's there. I don't think that it means anything more than what it says. You are reading it and leaping to the assumption that it is addressing situations other than exactly what it says.

 

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Ok i need someone to bring up a video camera, record me pitching by seperating my hands while on the rubber, big push off while dragging pivot foot, stop while in the K postion and then fall / push off again to deliever the pitch. Then we need to send this to all sanctions and ask them if by the rules is this ok, and if not what would it be called...

As I said the first time you proposed this (probably impossible) pitching motion...

Once the pitch is started, if there is a STOP in your motion you have violated the pitching rules that require the pitch to be delivered in one continuous, uninterupted motion. This is an illegal pitch.

But if you make that video, please post in on OFC so we can all see it!

 

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You're doing what many people do when grabbing pits and pieces of the rule book to justify a point they don't understand. It helps if you read ALL of the interpretations, not just ones you think might prove your point.

ASA further defines the crow hop in Rules Supplement #40. Why didn't you quote that? Maybe because it goes against what you're saying.


R/S #40: A CROW HOP is defined as a replant of the pivot foot prior to

​

​

delivering the pitch. This can be done by (1) sliding the foot in
front, but not in contact with, the pitcher?s plate; (2) lifting the pivot
foot and stepping forward; or (3) jumping forward from the pitcher?s
plate with the pivot foot prior to starting the pitch. Umpires should
look at the location of the pivot foot when the hands separate, the
start of the pitch. If the pivot foot is off and in front of the pitcher?s
plate before the hands separate, this would be a crow hop and
an illegal pitch should be called.​

It can't be any more plain than that. A crow hop is clearly defined as something that happens before the start of the pitch.​

The start of the pitch is defined as when the hands separate after the required touch.​

The pitcher's pushoff refers to where the pivot foot pushes away at the "start of the pitch".​

The pitcher's delivery refers to her entire pitching motion, not to the single point where the ball is released from the hand. The delivery begins at the defined "start of the pitch".​

Since the word "replant" is used ONLY in the context of a term to define a crow hop- nothing else- you can't just randomly use the word out of context and try to apply it to any other pitching rule or requirement.​

Put it all together:​

Is this pitcher separating her hands (ie: starting the pitch) before or after the pivot foot leaves the pitcher's plate? Before, so by definition it can't be a crow hop.​

Is this pitcher leaping?​

Nowhere have I said she definitely is or isn't. What I've said is that from the perspective of the video, and due to the quality of the video, it is not 100% certain one way or the other. A couple of people have said they see it, a couple of others have said it's inconclusive.​

If an infraction is so brief, lasting mere fractions of a second, and so tiny, with the foot maybe one inch or less off the ground, if that, and so difficult to detect that it takes multiple slow-motion replays and captured screen shoots to pick up, an umpire shouldn't be calling it. Umpires are told not to call a violation unless they are 100% CERTAIN they have seen it. To me, there isn't enough in that video to convince me 100% that the both feet are airbourne at the same time.​

​

DUDE! forget the term CROW HOP. That kid is (A) leaving the ground, which is illegal and constitutes a leap.
(B) that kid is replanting, which means she is pushing off a second time, whish is also illegal. It matters not if a kid leaves the ground or not. Pushing off from someplace other than the pitching plate is illegal.
You MUST be an Lawyer (no offence Joe) to try and add meaning to the rules that are very clear.
If you can not see the replant, I am sorry. If you can not see the air under her foot, I am sorry. They are obvious.
Trust me on this, this kid is getting a second push, which is closer to the batter. That in itself IS an advantage.

 

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What if the pivot foot was never on the rubber say 2" to 6" infront of it, before hands even came together, and at the same spot when hands seperate, you can't be called for a leap or crow hop when the foot has not yet moved, can you?

Now you're just being silly...

If the pivot foot was never on the rubber, then the pitcher has violated the rule that requires it to be on the rubber prior to the pitch. That is an illegal pitch.

She would be illegal before she had a chance to do anything else. It wouldn't matter if everything she did after that point was legal, or if everything after that point was illegal. She's already violated a rule by starting out with the pivot foot off the rubber. Anything that happens after that is moot.

 

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DUDE! forget the term CROW HOP.

I tried to forget it. In my first post on this video I said this wasn't a crow hop.

Then, poster after poster- including yourself- quoted line after line from the rules and interpretations used to define a crow hop!

You can't have it both ways. You can't extensively quote rules pertaining to a crow hop, using them to "prove" your point, then turn around and say "forget the crow hop".

If you say the kid has both feet airbourne simultaneously, then that is your judgment. I'm saying that from the grainy video I'm not 100% convinced "beyond a shadow of a doubt". That is my judgment.

Now you're telling me I'm "trying to add meaning to the rules". A poster right before that said I was being a literalist and that my mistake was not reading more into the rules than were already there.

If you're all going to gang up on me, at least you can get on the same page!

 

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NFHS 2010

Rule 2, Sec 16 "A crow hop is the replant of the pivot foot prior to delivering the pitch."

Rule 6 Sec 1 Art 2 c "Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal."

Notes 2 "Techniques such as the "crow hop" and "the leap" are illegal. (See 2-16 ; 2-33) "

NFHS rules do not talk about looking for the location of the pivot foot at hands separation, just before the delivery of the pitch. Nowhere does it say anything about once the hands separate does that constitute delivery of the pitch, merely the START of the pitch.

Regarding the ASA rules, I think you read too much into the underlined section you quoted above as excluding looking any other time. The first line of the definition states a replant before delivering the pitch. The delivery and the start of the pitch are not the same thing.

Bingo!

 

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I tried to forget it. In my first post on this video I said this wasn't a crow hop.

Then, poster after poster- including yourself- quoted line after line from the rules and interpretations used to define a crow hop!

You can't have it both ways. You can't extensively quote rules pertaining to a crow hop, using them to "prove" your point, then turn around and say "forget the crow hop".

If you say the kid has both feet airbourne simultaneously, then that is your judgment. I'm saying that from the grainy video I'm not 100% convinced "beyond a shadow of a doubt". That is my judgment.

Now you're telling me I'm "trying to add meaning to the rules". A poster right before that said I was being a literalist and that my mistake was not reading more into the rules than were already there.

If you're all going to gang up on me, at least you can get on the same page!

Go back and look at all my posts, Not once did I use the word Crow hop unless it was a quote from the rules. The NFHS does not refer to the "separating of the hands". That is not how umps interpret this rule.
The rules also do not say the tie goes to the runner, but that rule does say the ball must beat a runner to first. So if it did not beat the runner, if the ump saw the ball and the foot got there at the same time (tie) then the runner is safe.
If an ump sees a replant it is illegal. If the ump sees air under the foot it is illegal. Period. The term crow hop is a generic term for leaping and replanting. like,"go Xerox this." But if you haven`t been around this game for a while , you may not know that.
It seems you had a tough time seeing Abbott stepping off the pitching plate, now you say to can not see a replant or air under the foot....Are you sure you are not an ump?

 

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Here is the USFA definition of a crow hop/ it is at the very bottom.

http://www.usfastpitch.com/rules.htm

? Leap, Crow Hop or Re plant: When the pitcher’s pivot foot leaves the ground or is planted more than once during the delivery of a pitch. The foot can drag but cannot be “replanted”. Medical officials have deemed leaping and replanting hazardous to the pitcher’s knees. (The word leap was added to clarify this rule.)

Dont be confused by the "separating of the pitchers hands. That is only for the pitchers who take that small step off the pitching plate, like Abbott did.However that is not the only way to be illegal.

 

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Where to begin, where to begin...

Go back and look at all my posts, Not once did I use the word Crow hop unless it was a quote from the rules. The NFHS does not refer to the "separating of the hands". That is not how umps interpret this rule.

The NFHS has issued interpretations that specifically refer to hand separation. Umpires do interpret the rule that way (or should) because it is precisely how the NFHS has told us to!

AGAIN- see the NFHS video or read the Point of Emphasis from their rule book or website. There's not really much more I can add when someone keeps insisting a rule is interpreted one way or other but apparently has never bothered to peruse the interpretations offered by the sanctioning body.

The rules also do not say the tie goes to the runner, but that rule does say the ball must beat a runner to first. So if it did not beat the runner, if the ump saw the ball and the foot got there at the same time (tie) then the runner is safe.

The point of your analogy is...????

I would never claim the rules say "a tie goes to the runner"- and I'm not sure what that has to do with a conversation about pitching rules.

What I'm getting from this is that you think it's a bad idea to to make up your own false rule or interpretation that is contrary to how the rules really read or how they are commonly interpreted. I agree! People have been doing that in regards to the pitching rules this entire thread!

The term crow hop is a generic term for leaping and replanting. like,"go Xerox this." But if you haven`t been around this game for a while , you may not know that.

You say "crow hop" is a generic term used to describe many other violations. No, "crow hop" is a specific term, defined by interpretive literature from each sanctioning body, that applies to a specific action.

I guess if you want to "generically" use the term crow hop to describe other actions, you can, but then don't take random bits of the rules and interpretations about the specific, rule book definition of "crow hop" and try applying them to other situations.

I coached my first fastpitch game about 20 years ago. I'll let you decide if that's "being around this game a while".

It seems you had a tough time seeing Abbott stepping off the pitching plate, now you say to can not see a replant or air under the foot.

Now you're just making stuff up.

Never said she didn't ever step off the plate. Only said that I think she was called for a different violation during Olympic or World Cup play. Plus, I posted video showing her delivering several pitches where she definitely was NOT stepping off the plate.

Are you sure you are not an ump?

You're kidding, right?

 

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Here is the USFA definition of a crow hop...

USFA has, historically, been a laughingstock among umpires for their oddball rules and interpretations, many of which are contrary to what the rest of the softball world is doing.

Up until a couple of years ago, their rule book was, like, five pages long and contained such gems as "The hands are part of the bat". Then, to cover all the other rules not in their rule "handout" (couldn't really call it a "book") they added a note that said anything not covered by USFA rules would be covered by "standard" softball rules (whatever that means).

I would put USFA way down the list of sanctioning bodies to look to for rule expertise.

Your contention that some rules apply when a pitcher's foot is "a little bit" off the rubber, but are applied differently if her foot is "more than a little bit" off the rubber simply has no basis in fact. Earlier you were arguing that the rule about the hands being separated didn't exist. Now you're saying it's somehow tied into some rule about how far the pitcher's foot is away from the rubber (small step versus bigger step).

 

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you posted
R/S #40: A CROW HOP is defined as a replant of the pivot foot prior to


delivering the pitch. This can be done by (1) sliding the foot in
front, but not in contact with, the pitcher?s plate; (2) lifting the pivot
foot and stepping forward; or (3) jumping forward from the pitcher?s
plate with the pivot foot prior to starting the pitch. Umpires should
look at the location of the pivot foot when the hands separate, the
start of the pitch. If the pivot foot is off and in front of the pitcher?s
plate before the hands separate, this would be a crow hop and
an illegal pitch should be called.


What you are referring to is the hands separating before the Start of the pitch. That does not mean the same thing as what #1 or #2 says. #1 and #2 may not happen before DELIVERING the pitch.
Here is what the California Interscholastic Federation (Governing body of California high school sports says.) CIF

Crow Hop = A replant of the pivot foot prior to releasing the ball
! This is done by:
! Sliding the foot in front of the plate
OR
! Lifting the pivot foot and stepping forward
OR
! Jumping forward with the pivot foot off the plate prior to STARTING the pitch

! Pitcher must have:
! Pivot foot partially on top of the plate
! Both feet within 24-inch length of plate
! Umpires can determine a replant by looking at the location of the pivot foot when the
hands separate to start the pitch(This means if there is another "plant" from another location then a replant has happened)
! If the pivot foot is off and in front of the plate before the hands separate, a crow hop has
occurred – an illegal pitch is called...This means this is ALSO a crow hop

http://www.cifstate.org/sports/rules/pdf/Softball memo1 10.pdf

So in short "we" were right all along. Looking for where the hands are separtating before the start of the pitch is only one way of determinding crow hopping.
So is sliding the" foot in front of the plate and replanting
So is lifting the foot and steping forward before delivering the ball.
So is jumping forward with the pivot foot prior to starting the pitch.

Leap/Crow Hop (Replant)
! Leap = Both feet are airborne by the pitcher prior to the release
! Pivot foot must stay in contact with the ground as it drags away from the plate until the
lead foot touches the ground
! If both feet are off the ground at the same time during the delivery – an illegal pitch shall
be

If you look at the web site you will see two pictures that show the same thing our young pitcher is doing.

http://www.cifstate.org/sports/rules/pdf/Softball memo1 10.pdf

In most cases she is leaping (and replanting) which is illegal

In some cases she is dragging and replanting (crowhoping) which is still illegal.